>> Sreenivasan: CAROLINE CHEN,

WHO COVERS PUBLIC HEALTH FOR

"PROPUBLICA," JOINED ME FOR

MORE ABOUT THE CONTINUING

COVID-19 RISK AND VACCINE RATES

AROUND THE WORLD.

CAROLINE, ONE OF THE REASONS WE

ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IS

NEW DATA THAT'S COME OUT THAT

SHOWS HOW SIGNIFICANT COVID IS

AS A CAUSE OF DEATH, ESPECIALLY

IN PEOPLE THAT ARE 35-54.

>> NEW DATA THAT HAS COME OUT

ANALYZING THAT, SORT OF, BURDEN

OF MORTALITY HAS SHOWN THAT FOR

35-54, AT SOME POINT, SOME

MONTHS IN THIS PAST PANDEMIC,

COVID HAS BEEN THE NUMBER ONE

CAUSE OF DEATH.

>> Sreenivasan: YOU KNOW,

BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME, OR AT

LEAST EARLY ON, WE WERE WORRIED

ABOUT THE ELDERLY, WE WERE

WORRIED ABOUT THE AUTO IMMUNE

SUPPRESSED.

IS THIS POPULATION, SAY FOR

EXAMPLE, IN SEPTEMBER, THE 35-54

YEAR OLDS, ARE THE BULK OF THESE

PEOPLE DYING BECAUSE THEY ARE

UNVACCINATED?

>> I WOULD SAY THE BULK OF THESE

PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING ARE

DEFINITELY UNVACCINATED.

AND I THINK WE HAVE THIS ADDED

FACTOR OF THE DELTA VARIANT, AND

WE'RE, SORT OF, SEEING THE

IMPACT HERE BECAUSE IT IS SO

MUCH MORE INFECTIOUS.

>> Sreenivasan: THE POPULATION

OF CONCERN FOR MILLIONS OF

AMERICANS RIGHT NOW ARE THEIR

SCHOOLCHILDREN THAT ARE IN SOME

WAY SHAPE OR FORM BACK IN FULL

TIME SCHOOL, PART TIME SCHOOL,

MAYBE SOME ARE IN ZOOM SCHOOL

CLASSES WHEN THOSE RECOMMENDED

DOSES OF VACCINES WILL BE

AVAILABLE TO CHILDREN.

>> YEAH, AND HARI, AS WE'VE

TALKED ABOUT A COUPLE OF TIMES

NOW, THE REASON WHY IT'S TAKEN

SO LONG IS BECAUSE CHILDREN MAY

BE GETTING A DIFFERENT DOSE,

PARTICULARLY THE REALLY YOUNG

CHILDREN.

AND SO, YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A

RIGOROUS PROCESS TO ASSESS WHAT

IS, WHAT THEY CALL THE

"GOLDILOCKS DOSE."

YOU KNOW, SMALL, SMALLER, SO

IT'LL BE SAFER AND HAVE FEWER

REACTIONS, BUT A BIG ENOUGH DOSE

THAT IT WILL BE EFFECTIVE.

SO, WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IS

THAT PFIZER HAS SUBMITTED DATA

TO THE F.D.A. FOR 5-11 YEAR

OLDS, AND I AM HOPEFUL TO SEE

THE 5-11s HAVE AN OPTION FOR

VACCINE BY THE END OF THIS YEAR.

>> Sreenivasan: WHILE AMERICANS,

SOME AMERICANS, STILL HESITATE

ON TAKING A VACCINE THAT HAS

BEEN AVAILABLE FOR MONTHS AND

MONTHS, WE STILL SEE A LARGE

SCALE DISPARITY ON OTHER PARTS

OF THE PLANET, OTHER COUNTRIES

THAT DON'T HAVE EITHER ACCESS OR

THE ABILITY TO DEPLOY THESE

VACCINES VERY QUICKLY.

AND SO, THERE'S THIS SORT OF

ETHICAL DILEMMA THAT'S ALSO

PRESENTING ITSELF TO AMERICANS.

SHOULD WE BE GETTING A THIRD

SHOT OR A BOOSTER SHOT BEFORE

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE EVEN GET

THEIR FIRST?

>> YEAH, I SO APPRECIATE YOU

BRINGING THIS UP, BECAUSE I

THINK SO MANY PEOPLE DON'T EVEN

REALIZE THAT THERE ARE COUNTRIES

THAT ARE WAITING FOR THEIR FIRST

SHOTS STILL.

AND I THINK IT'S REALLY

IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE THINKING

ABOUT THE IMPACT OF BOOSTERS,

ESPECIALLY OVER THE LONG TERM,

BUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE

HOSPITAL TODAY, WHO ARE BEING

HOSPITALIZED, PEOPLE WHO ARE

DYING, ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T

EVEN GOTTEN THEIR FIRST SHOT,

WHETHER THIS IS IN THE U.S. OR

OUTSIDE OF THE U.S.

AND SO, I THINK THIS IS A REALLY

IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR EVERY

GOVERNMENT TO BE GRAPPLING WITH.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE CONSORTIUM

CALLED COVAX, WHICH IS THE

W.H.O., CEPI, GAVI, A NUMBER OF

DIFFERENT ALLIANCES TOGETHER,

ARE ASKING COUNTRIES TO

BASICALLY GIVE UP THEIR SPOT IN

THE MANUFACTURING PRODUCTION AND

SWAP.

SO, SAY YOU'RE A WEALTHY NATION,

YOU HAVE A SHIPMENT OF MODERNA

VACCINE COMING YOUR WAY, BUT YOU

HAVE ABUNDANCE ALREADY.

CAN YOU SWAP YOUR SCHEDULE SLOT

WITH A COUNTRY THAT'S BEEN

WAITING FOR THEIR FIRST DOSES?

SO, I DO THINK THIS IS A VERY

HIGH LEVEL DISCUSSION, AND I

DON'T KNOW AT THIS POINT THAT IF

YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN,

SORT OF, REFUSE YOUR BOOSTER, AT

THAT POINT, THE SHIPMENT MIGHT

HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE TO YOUR

LOCAL PHARMACY, RIGHT.

SO, THAT'S VERY HARD TO UNWIND.

BUT AT THIS MACRO LEVEL, I DO

THINK GLOBAL LEADERS NEED TO BE

REALLY THINKING SERIOUSLY ABOUT

THIS PICTURE AND THINKING ABOUT

OTHER COUNTRIES.

>> Sreenivasan: "PROPUBLICA'S"

CAROLINE CHEN, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.