WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.560 JUDY WOODRUFF: The first draft of history is being written about the final chaotic days 00:04.560 --> 00:08.960 of Donald Trump's presidency and the earliest days of Joe Biden's. 00:08.960 --> 00:12.880 In a new book by Washington Post journalists Bob Woodward and Robert 00:12.880 --> 00:17.760 Costa, they reveal the alarm and the lengths that then-President Trump's top 00:17.760 --> 00:22.400 advisers went to, to prevent him from acting on his worst impulses. 00:22.400 --> 00:24.400 The title of the book is "Peril." 00:24.400 --> 00:25.520 And they join us now. 00:26.480 --> 00:28.320 And we welcome both of you to the "NewsHour." 00:28.320 --> 00:30.560 Bob Woodward, Robert Costa, welcome back to PBS. 00:30.560 --> 00:31.120 ROBERT COSTA, Co-Author, "Peril": Good to see you. 00:31.120 --> 00:34.720 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, before we talk about some of the details of the book, Bob Woodward, 00:34.720 --> 00:38.080 this is your third book looking at Donald Trump. 00:38.720 --> 00:43.720 How is he different, was he different at the end of his term than he was at the beginning? 00:43.840 --> 00:48.840 BOB WOODWARD, Co-Author, "Peril": He's always shocking and different, but also always the same. 00:50.080 --> 00:55.080 And this -- in a way, the reporting on Trump is a quest. Who is he? What does he really care about? 01:00.720 --> 01:05.720 What is he doing? What is his political appeal to so many people in the country? And just, 01:08.000 --> 01:13.000 if you zoom in on the reality now, it's -- the idea that he and Nixon -- when Nixon 01:15.680 --> 01:20.480 left and resigned, he didn't do around and campaign. Trump is campaigning. 01:20.480 --> 01:22.880 JUDY WOODRUFF: Is campaigning. And I want to ask you about that. 01:22.880 --> 01:27.880 Robert Costa, so much important reporting in this book, including about -- as I just mentioned, 01:28.800 --> 01:33.800 about how Trump's advisers at different points, at many points were trying to keep him from 01:35.200 --> 01:40.200 carrying out acts that would have been -- either violated the Constitution or been purely illegal. 01:42.640 --> 01:45.680 And there's one example in here I want to ask you about. It was 2020. 01:46.640 --> 01:51.640 The attorney general, Bill Barr, he was being asked by the president to OK an order that would, 01:52.000 --> 01:57.000 in an instant, take all 10 million American citizens who were the children of undocumented 01:59.440 --> 02:04.440 immigrants, because he said, let's just, in one fell swoop, say they won't be. 02:04.720 --> 02:08.640 And I won't get into all the details about why. But there were people around 02:08.640 --> 02:11.920 the president who agreed with him on this. The attorney general said no. 02:12.720 --> 02:16.720 Help us understand why some went along and some didn't. 02:16.720 --> 02:20.960 ROBERT COSTA: The answer to that is complicated, because these characters 02:20.960 --> 02:24.640 in "Peril" and during this moment in American history are complicated. 02:24.640 --> 02:29.600 In many ways, our reporting shows Attorney General Barr was an enabler of President Trump, 02:29.600 --> 02:33.920 a political ally. He actually went to President Trump in April 2020. We have the whole scene, 02:33.920 --> 02:38.920 and saying he needs to reform his behavior. He uses some words we can say here on PBS about 02:39.120 --> 02:43.280 trying to corral the president more towards the political center, toward political norms. 02:43.280 --> 02:47.360 He was enabling President Trump, but he was also, on issues like birthright citizenship, 02:47.360 --> 02:52.080 trying to pull him away from the more far right elements of the Republican Party. 02:52.080 --> 02:55.120 But whether it was Barr or others, we keep seeing in our reporting 02:55.680 --> 03:00.680 no one was able to contain President Trump. And that's why Chairman Milley decided to take 03:01.440 --> 03:05.840 some kind of behind-the-scenes actions to make sure catastrophe didn't happen. 03:05.840 --> 03:09.520 JUDY WOODRUFF: And we, in fact, have already done some reporting on elements of your book 03:09.520 --> 03:14.480 that came out about General Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Bob Woodward, 03:14.480 --> 03:19.480 who got in touch with his Chinese counterpart to say, no, we're not planning to come after China. 03:22.800 --> 03:25.840 But there are other pieces, stories in the book about 03:27.040 --> 03:32.006 General Milley that suggests he was genuinely worried about the president. 03:32.006 --> 03:32.800 BOB WOODWARD: Yes, he was. 03:34.320 --> 03:39.320 This idea -- I mean, Trump has said that what Milley did was treasonous. We found no evidence, 03:40.400 --> 03:45.400 zero evidence of that. He's trying to protect the country in moments of crisis four 03:46.880 --> 03:51.880 days before the election. Milley gets intelligence that the Chinese think we're going to attack them. 03:53.920 --> 03:58.920 This is one of the hairiest moments for somebody in the military, that the adversary might think 04:01.840 --> 04:06.840 we're going to attack them, which could invite a Pearl Harbor strike, first move on the other side. 04:09.360 --> 04:14.360 And so, in the panic -- and, I mean, it was a crisis -- to talk to the Chinese counterpart and 04:19.120 --> 04:24.120 say, no, no, we don't mean that. We are not going to attack you. And he says some things that have 04:25.600 --> 04:30.600 been interpreted, like when he said, we're not - - if we're going to attack you, I will call you. 04:32.640 --> 04:37.640 Well, what he means, in context, if you look at - - I'm sorry we remember this -- page 129 in the 04:39.760 --> 04:44.760 book, what Milley is saying to General Li China is, look, we will be talking. There are tensions. 04:50.960 --> 04:55.200 But this is not a time when we're going to attack you. 04:55.200 --> 04:59.520 And interesting, and maybe important to history, 05:00.480 --> 05:05.480 General Li said, I believe you. I accept you at your word in. 05:06.080 --> 05:09.280 JUDY WOODRUFF: And when it comes to Attorney General Bill Barr, 05:09.280 --> 05:12.640 whether it's Lindsey Graham, a number of people who were advising this president, 05:12.640 --> 05:17.280 at the time, it looked like they were unquestioning going along with him. 05:17.280 --> 05:21.520 You -- in your reporting, they're telling you, well, I had different ideas. 05:21.520 --> 05:22.880 How do you know when to believe them? 05:22.880 --> 05:26.160 ROBERT COSTA: It's not about believing them. 05:26.160 --> 05:31.160 It's about charting what they do, what they say. Actions matter in politics and policy. 05:33.520 --> 05:38.520 And you see with Senator Graham, it's not about us believing him, because we see him twist and turn 05:39.840 --> 05:44.840 in our story at many times. He's at one time saying President Trump's going way outside 05:44.960 --> 05:49.440 of the bounds on the election. And, other times, he's saying this man must run in 2024. 05:49.440 --> 05:54.440 JUDY WOODRUFF: I want to -- and you referred, Bob, just quickly, a minute ago to 05:54.960 --> 05:57.440 President Trump. Do you think he will run again? 05:57.440 --> 05:58.240 BOB WOODWARD: Yes. 05:59.280 --> 06:04.280 Our reporting shows -- and he's been kind of baiting people and say, oh, 06:04.400 --> 06:09.400 I'm not going to announce yet, but telling his supporters, you will be happy with what I do. 06:11.760 --> 06:14.960 This -- but nothing is certain here. 06:14.960 --> 06:17.280 ROBERT COSTA: Well, that quote from Brad Parscale, 06:17.840 --> 06:22.800 in July 2021, he privately said, based on our reporting, the former campaign manager for Trump 06:22.800 --> 06:26.160 in 2020, that, if he runs again - - and Parscale and others around 06:26.160 --> 06:30.800 the president believe he will -- the former president -- he will run because of vengeance. 06:30.800 --> 06:35.360 That will be the motivating factor. And the people around President Trump and his supporters now are 06:35.360 --> 06:40.320 people like Steve Bannon, who told the president, we need to kill the Biden presidency in the crib. 06:40.320 --> 06:43.840 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, of course, part of the book is about President Biden. 06:44.960 --> 06:47.840 Bob Woodward, you have got really interesting reporting here about 06:48.400 --> 06:51.120 his relationship with his closest 06:51.120 --> 06:56.120 advisers and what they are trying to keep him from doing. They don't like him doing unscripted 06:56.560 --> 07:01.560 events. And there are points where Republicans and others are looking at this White House and saying, 07:02.800 --> 07:07.800 they're keeping the president back. They're keeping him from what he wants to do. 07:07.840 --> 07:08.120 BOB WOODWARD: Well... 07:08.120 --> 07:09.760 JUDY WOODRUFF: How did you end up reading that role? 07:09.760 --> 07:14.480 BOB WOODWARD: I mean, they may be trying, but I think Biden's going to do what he wants. 07:14.480 --> 07:19.480 And we show him in private meetings regularly being the question man, 07:19.920 --> 07:24.920 be very tough on people. Where did that come from? Are you sure? Give me the data. 07:25.280 --> 07:30.280 He is somebody who was a tough boss. At the same time, in Afghanistan, which is so 07:32.640 --> 07:37.640 important, Tony Blinken, the secretary of state, and Austin, the secretary of defense, in March 07:40.880 --> 07:45.880 formally made proposals to President Biden, slow down the pullout. Do it in increments. 07:49.600 --> 07:54.600 And this, of course, is the criticism, saying Biden should have done that. 07:54.800 --> 07:56.160 JUDY WOODRUFF: Less than 30 seconds. 07:57.280 --> 08:02.280 President Biden, so much on his plate right now. Based on your reporting, does 08:02.400 --> 08:07.280 he understand the Congress, the U.S. Senate that he served in, but that it's changed since then? 08:07.280 --> 08:08.880 ROBERT COSTA: He has adapted. 08:08.880 --> 08:13.120 You see this man of the Senate. They call him old Joe, some of his closest friends in the Senate, 08:13.120 --> 08:18.120 because he was there for 36 years. He's adapted to a changing Democratic Party. 08:18.880 --> 08:22.400 One of his closest allies we show in the book is Senator Bernie Sanders 08:22.400 --> 08:27.400 of Vermont, his primary foe in 2020, who came close to the nomination, now working 08:27.520 --> 08:30.720 in tandem with him on infrastructure. It's actually the centrists at times, 08:30.720 --> 08:34.880 like Senator Manchin in West Virginia, who are causing President Biden the most headaches. 08:34.880 --> 08:37.200 JUDY WOODRUFF: Robert Costa, Bob Woodward. 08:37.200 --> 08:39.840 The book is "Peril." Thank you both. And congratulations. 08:39.840 --> 08:44.840 ROBERT COSTA: Thank you.