1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,560 JUDY WOODRUFF: The first draft of history is being written about the final chaotic days 2 00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:08,960 of Donald Trump's presidency and the earliest days of Joe Biden's. 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,880 In a new book by Washington Post journalists Bob Woodward and Robert 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,760 Costa, they reveal the alarm and the lengths that then-President Trump's top 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,400 advisers went to, to prevent him from acting on his worst impulses. 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,400 The title of the book is "Peril." 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:25,520 And they join us now. 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,320 And we welcome both of you to the "NewsHour." 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,560 Bob Woodward, Robert Costa, welcome back to PBS. 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,120 ROBERT COSTA, Co-Author, "Peril": Good to see you. 11 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,720 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, before we talk about some of the details of the book, Bob Woodward, 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,080 this is your third book looking at Donald Trump. 13 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,720 How is he different, was he different at the end of his term than he was at the beginning? 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,840 BOB WOODWARD, Co-Author, "Peril": He's always shocking and different, but also always the same. 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:55,080 And this -- in a way, the reporting on Trump is a quest. Who is he? What does he really care about? 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,720 What is he doing? What is his political appeal to so many people in the country? And just, 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,000 if you zoom in on the reality now, it's -- the idea that he and Nixon -- when Nixon 18 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,480 left and resigned, he didn't do around and campaign. Trump is campaigning. 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,880 JUDY WOODRUFF: Is campaigning. And I want to ask you about that. 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,880 Robert Costa, so much important reporting in this book, including about -- as I just mentioned, 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,800 about how Trump's advisers at different points, at many points were trying to keep him from 22 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,200 carrying out acts that would have been -- either violated the Constitution or been purely illegal. 23 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,680 And there's one example in here I want to ask you about. It was 2020. 24 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,640 The attorney general, Bill Barr, he was being asked by the president to OK an order that would, 25 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,000 in an instant, take all 10 million American citizens who were the children of undocumented 26 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,440 immigrants, because he said, let's just, in one fell swoop, say they won't be. 27 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,640 And I won't get into all the details about why. But there were people around 28 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:11,920 the president who agreed with him on this. The attorney general said no. 29 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,720 Help us understand why some went along and some didn't. 30 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,960 ROBERT COSTA: The answer to that is complicated, because these characters 31 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,640 in "Peril" and during this moment in American history are complicated. 32 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:29,600 In many ways, our reporting shows Attorney General Barr was an enabler of President Trump, 33 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,920 a political ally. He actually went to President Trump in April 2020. We have the whole scene, 34 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:38,920 and saying he needs to reform his behavior. He uses some words we can say here on PBS about 35 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,280 trying to corral the president more towards the political center, toward political norms. 36 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,360 He was enabling President Trump, but he was also, on issues like birthright citizenship, 37 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,080 trying to pull him away from the more far right elements of the Republican Party. 38 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,120 But whether it was Barr or others, we keep seeing in our reporting 39 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,680 no one was able to contain President Trump. And that's why Chairman Milley decided to take 40 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,840 some kind of behind-the-scenes actions to make sure catastrophe didn't happen. 41 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,520 JUDY WOODRUFF: And we, in fact, have already done some reporting on elements of your book 42 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,480 that came out about General Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Bob Woodward, 43 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,480 who got in touch with his Chinese counterpart to say, no, we're not planning to come after China. 44 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,840 But there are other pieces, stories in the book about 45 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:32,006 General Milley that suggests he was genuinely worried about the president. 46 00:03:32,006 --> 00:03:32,800 BOB WOODWARD: Yes, he was. 47 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:39,320 This idea -- I mean, Trump has said that what Milley did was treasonous. We found no evidence, 48 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,400 zero evidence of that. He's trying to protect the country in moments of crisis four 49 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,880 days before the election. Milley gets intelligence that the Chinese think we're going to attack them. 50 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:58,920 This is one of the hairiest moments for somebody in the military, that the adversary might think 51 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,840 we're going to attack them, which could invite a Pearl Harbor strike, first move on the other side. 52 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:14,360 And so, in the panic -- and, I mean, it was a crisis -- to talk to the Chinese counterpart and 53 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:24,120 say, no, no, we don't mean that. We are not going to attack you. And he says some things that have 54 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,600 been interpreted, like when he said, we're not - - if we're going to attack you, I will call you. 55 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,640 Well, what he means, in context, if you look at - - I'm sorry we remember this -- page 129 in the 56 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,760 book, what Milley is saying to General Li China is, look, we will be talking. There are tensions. 57 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,200 But this is not a time when we're going to attack you. 58 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,520 And interesting, and maybe important to history, 59 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,480 General Li said, I believe you. I accept you at your word in. 60 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,280 JUDY WOODRUFF: And when it comes to Attorney General Bill Barr, 61 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:12,640 whether it's Lindsey Graham, a number of people who were advising this president, 62 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,280 at the time, it looked like they were unquestioning going along with him. 63 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:21,520 You -- in your reporting, they're telling you, well, I had different ideas. 64 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:22,880 How do you know when to believe them? 65 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,160 ROBERT COSTA: It's not about believing them. 66 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:31,160 It's about charting what they do, what they say. Actions matter in politics and policy. 67 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,520 And you see with Senator Graham, it's not about us believing him, because we see him twist and turn 68 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:44,840 in our story at many times. He's at one time saying President Trump's going way outside 69 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,440 of the bounds on the election. And, other times, he's saying this man must run in 2024. 70 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,440 JUDY WOODRUFF: I want to -- and you referred, Bob, just quickly, a minute ago to 71 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,440 President Trump. Do you think he will run again? 72 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:58,240 BOB WOODWARD: Yes. 73 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:04,280 Our reporting shows -- and he's been kind of baiting people and say, oh, 74 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,400 I'm not going to announce yet, but telling his supporters, you will be happy with what I do. 75 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,960 This -- but nothing is certain here. 76 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,280 ROBERT COSTA: Well, that quote from Brad Parscale, 77 00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:22,800 in July 2021, he privately said, based on our reporting, the former campaign manager for Trump 78 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,160 in 2020, that, if he runs again - - and Parscale and others around 79 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,800 the president believe he will -- the former president -- he will run because of vengeance. 80 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,360 That will be the motivating factor. And the people around President Trump and his supporters now are 81 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,320 people like Steve Bannon, who told the president, we need to kill the Biden presidency in the crib. 82 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,840 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, of course, part of the book is about President Biden. 83 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,840 Bob Woodward, you have got really interesting reporting here about 84 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,120 his relationship with his closest 85 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,120 advisers and what they are trying to keep him from doing. They don't like him doing unscripted 86 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,560 events. And there are points where Republicans and others are looking at this White House and saying, 87 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,800 they're keeping the president back. They're keeping him from what he wants to do. 88 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:08,120 BOB WOODWARD: Well... 89 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,760 JUDY WOODRUFF: How did you end up reading that role? 90 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,480 BOB WOODWARD: I mean, they may be trying, but I think Biden's going to do what he wants. 91 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,480 And we show him in private meetings regularly being the question man, 92 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,920 be very tough on people. Where did that come from? Are you sure? Give me the data. 93 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,280 He is somebody who was a tough boss. At the same time, in Afghanistan, which is so 94 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,640 important, Tony Blinken, the secretary of state, and Austin, the secretary of defense, in March 95 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,880 formally made proposals to President Biden, slow down the pullout. Do it in increments. 96 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,600 And this, of course, is the criticism, saying Biden should have done that. 97 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,160 JUDY WOODRUFF: Less than 30 seconds. 98 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,280 President Biden, so much on his plate right now. Based on your reporting, does 99 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,280 he understand the Congress, the U.S. Senate that he served in, but that it's changed since then? 100 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:08,880 ROBERT COSTA: He has adapted. 101 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,120 You see this man of the Senate. They call him old Joe, some of his closest friends in the Senate, 102 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,120 because he was there for 36 years. He's adapted to a changing Democratic Party. 103 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,400 One of his closest allies we show in the book is Senator Bernie Sanders 104 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,400 of Vermont, his primary foe in 2020, who came close to the nomination, now working 105 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,720 in tandem with him on infrastructure. It's actually the centrists at times, 106 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,880 like Senator Manchin in West Virginia, who are causing President Biden the most headaches. 107 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,200 JUDY WOODRUFF: Robert Costa, Bob Woodward. 108 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,840 The book is "Peril." Thank you both. And congratulations. 109 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,840 ROBERT COSTA: Thank you.