JUDY WOODRUFF: CIA Director
William Burns told the Senate
Intelligence Committee today

that he believes Russia's
President Vladimir Putin is
losing the so-called information

war over Ukraine, and that this
may chip away at his domestic
support for the invasion.

But what exactly are Russian citizens
hearing about this war on Russian media?

William Brangham explains.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: On TV screens
and social media feeds around
the world, it's an endless

stream of the brutality and terror
of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

MAN (through translator): They behave like
fascists.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But, in Russia,
the script is flipped upside-down.

And, for Russian citizens, this
means they're seeing a distorted
reality of their nation's

war.

SERGEY LAVROV, Russian Foreign
Minister (through translator):
We didn't attack Ukraine.

As we have been explaining many
times, they created the threats
against the Russian Federation.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Foreign
Minister Sergey Lavrov today
repeated this false accusation.

It was the same one Putin used as pretense
for launching the invasion.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, Russian President
(through translator): We will
strive for the demilitarization

and denazification of Ukraine,
and will bring to justice those
who committed multiple bloody

crimes against civilians.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Putin said
he was launching a limited
military operation, one intended

to save Ukrainians from a genocide.

It's a familiar distortion.

It's one Putin used in a speech
announcing his annexation of
Crimea, a peninsula in Ukraine,

back in 2014.

VLADIMIR PUTIN (through translator):
The initiators of that coup d'etat
were nationalists, anti-Semites,

radicals.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Now the
Kremlin is tightening the
reins on the media even more.

Last week, Putin signed a law
that effectively criminalizes
accurate reporting about the

war.

Even the word war is banned.

Publishing so-called false
information is now punishable
with up to 15 years in prison.

The government forced independent channel
TV Rain to close.

Its editors signed off by playing
"Swan Lake," a clear jab at
the government, which played

the same loop on state TV in
1991 when a failed coup was under
way against Mikhail Gorbachev.

Russian authorities also shuttered
the country's last independent
radio station, Echo of Moscow.

It's banned Facebook, too, though Russians
can still use apps like Telegram, WhatsApp

and Instagram, for now.

Instead, the government is
steering propaganda at even the
youngest Russians, releasing this

virtual lesson on -- quote --
"why the liberation mission
in Ukraine is necessary."

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX News: Good evening.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And Russian
disinformation gets a boost
from some U.S. media as well.

FOX News' Tucker Carlson has
repeatedly criticized U.S.
involvement in Ukraine and expressed

support for Putin, and those clips
have made it onto Russian news.

TUCKER CARLSON: People are so ghoulish.

And, of course, they're promoting war.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In the U.S.,
Carlson's view is just one of
many that Americans can listen

to and weigh for themselves.

But, as the carnage of Putin's
war continues, the reality for
many Russians is only as real

as their government allows.

And joining me now is Anton Shirikov.

He researches disinformation
and propaganda inside Russia
at the University of Wisconsin.

Anton, very good to have
you on the "NewsHour."

So, we touched on a little bit of the
media that the Russian people are seeing?

Can you give us a better sense of what the
average Russian is seeing about Ukraine on

their news?

ANTON SHIRIKOV, University
of Wisconsin: Yes.

Thank you for having
me there, first of all.

So, what Russians are seeing
is mainly that there is some
military action going on in

Ukraine, but this is all very
targeted, this is targeted
against Nazi battalions, against

military infrastructure.

It doesn't hurt any civilians.

And most Ukrainians are welcoming
Russians.They want to get rid
of their corrupt and fascist

government.

But the government is resisting and
government forces are resisting.

And so that's why Russian
forces are in Ukraine.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And these
depictions of certain parts of
Ukrainian society being fascist

or Nazi, as you're mentioning,
those, as you have written,
tie into a fairly long history

as far as Russian
information about Ukrainians.

Can you explain that a bit more?

ANTON SHIRIKOV: There is a
long history, so Ukraine has
been a thorn in Putin's side,

in Kremlin's side for quite.

Ukraine had a couple of successful social
revolutions, where pro-Russian governments

were toppled.

And the Kremlin has been trying
to portray all those revolutions
and the democratic development

in Ukraine since then as these
corrupt attempts to install a
regime that doesn't have public

support, that is installed by the West.

And so -- and that ties into this
wider narrative that the Russian
government is promoting that

NATO and the West are behind
most of Russia's troubles,
and this is one of them.

And they are speaking to this
-- to this grievance that Russia
has, Russians have because of

the Soviet collapse, because of
the West winning this Cold War, and
that this is what the government

is trying to exploit.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And can I ask you
sort of a chicken-or-the-egg question?

Is this -- does this media
feed into people's preconceived
notions or does this media create

those notions?

ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think it's both.

So, there is definitely a lot
of grievances about the West,
a lot of bad feelings towards

the West.

But what propaganda does, it
builds on those and it constantly
provides information that's

consistent with those beliefs.

And if you repeat this, if
you throw a lot of those false
narratives, then people -- over

time, people get used to them.

And they sort of start think
-- they believe - - they feel
like they have believed this

already before.

So, this is a feedback loop, essentially.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We have been
hearing certain reports of
Ukrainians calling family members

in Russia, saying, we're under
attack, the bombs are going
off, and that their relatives

in Russia are saying, what are you talking
about?

That's not happening.

I mean, that has got to be an
incredibly jarring experience for
Ukrainians, to have their basic

reality being denied.

ANTON SHIRIKOV: Yes, that is terrible.

That is absurd.

I mean, I, myself, having relatives in
Russia, have had a similar experience.

When I say that, yes, Ukrainian cities are
bombed by Russians, they say, no, nothing

like that is happening.

It's just those Nazi battalions
that are making provocations.

They are just pretending that
there is something going on.

But, really, we are there to help.

That's it.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Given that
there are these other social
media and messaging apps, like

Instagram and Telegram and
WhatsApp that are available, can
people get an accurate portrayal

of what's happening in
Ukraine if they want it?

ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think, if they want it,
they still could.

So, on Telegram, there are --
there are still channels that
cover Ukraine truthfully, or

- - more or less.

People can use a VPN.

They could go to one of the independent
media Web sites that are still working.

They're working mostly from outside
of Russia, but they're available yet.

So, if you want, you can.

But most people in Russia still don't seem
like they want it.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: There are
seemingly some signs that this
facade is starting to crack.

We read some reports today
about some state broadcasters
mentioning that the sanctions

are biting quite hard in Russia,
and perhaps the president
ought to consider dialing back,

as they call it, this limited operation.

Do you think that that is real?

Do you think that facade will continue to
crack?

ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think that's the
billion-dollar question for now.

So, there are probably some
people who -- some anchors, some
people on TV who said something

like that.

But the question is, if this
dissent would be eliminated
quickly, I think the government

will still be able to hold this impression
of winning, of being on the right side for

some time.

But I think what's more important
is that people would still
start feeling the new reality

soon, because of the sanctions,
because of - - unfortunately,
because of the bodies that

are coming home from Ukraine.

So, I think that might have
more -- a deeper impact on
Russians' perceptions of the war.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.

There's a certain level that
you just simply can't escape,
the fact that your economy is

tanking and your people are dying.

Anton Shirikov from the
University of Wisconsin, thank
you so much for being here.

ANTON SHIRIKOV: Thank you.