WEBVTT 00:00.480 --> 00:04.920 JUDY WOODRUFF: CIA Director William Burns told the Senate Intelligence Committee today 00:04.920 --> 00:09.920 that he believes Russia's President Vladimir Putin is losing the so-called information 00:10.499 --> 00:15.499 war over Ukraine, and that this may chip away at his domestic support for the invasion. 00:16.750 --> 00:21.750 But what exactly are Russian citizens hearing about this war on Russian media? 00:22.369 --> 00:23.890 William Brangham explains. 00:23.890 --> 00:28.890 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: On TV screens and social media feeds around the world, it's an endless 00:29.660 --> 00:33.690 stream of the brutality and terror of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 00:33.690 --> 00:35.460 MAN (through translator): They behave like fascists. 00:35.460 --> 00:38.800 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But, in Russia, the script is flipped upside-down. 00:38.800 --> 00:43.800 And, for Russian citizens, this means they're seeing a distorted reality of their nation's 00:44.610 --> 00:45.610 war. 00:45.610 --> 00:49.059 SERGEY LAVROV, Russian Foreign Minister (through translator): We didn't attack Ukraine. 00:49.059 --> 00:53.530 As we have been explaining many times, they created the threats against the Russian Federation. 00:53.530 --> 00:58.530 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov today repeated this false accusation. 00:59.269 --> 01:02.910 It was the same one Putin used as pretense for launching the invasion. 01:02.910 --> 01:06.550 VLADIMIR PUTIN, Russian President (through translator): We will strive for the demilitarization 01:06.550 --> 01:11.000 and denazification of Ukraine, and will bring to justice those who committed multiple bloody 01:11.000 --> 01:12.510 crimes against civilians. 01:12.510 --> 01:17.510 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Putin said he was launching a limited military operation, one intended 01:18.320 --> 01:22.370 to save Ukrainians from a genocide. 01:22.370 --> 01:24.220 It's a familiar distortion. 01:24.220 --> 01:29.220 It's one Putin used in a speech announcing his annexation of Crimea, a peninsula in Ukraine, 01:29.370 --> 01:30.370 back in 2014. 01:30.370 --> 01:34.430 VLADIMIR PUTIN (through translator): The initiators of that coup d'etat were nationalists, anti-Semites, 01:34.430 --> 01:35.430 radicals. 01:35.430 --> 01:40.430 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Now the Kremlin is tightening the reins on the media even more. 01:40.870 --> 01:45.600 Last week, Putin signed a law that effectively criminalizes accurate reporting about the 01:45.600 --> 01:46.680 war. 01:46.680 --> 01:49.160 Even the word war is banned. 01:49.160 --> 01:54.160 Publishing so-called false information is now punishable with up to 15 years in prison. 01:54.850 --> 01:58.710 The government forced independent channel TV Rain to close. 01:58.710 --> 02:03.710 Its editors signed off by playing "Swan Lake," a clear jab at the government, which played 02:03.960 --> 02:08.960 the same loop on state TV in 1991 when a failed coup was under way against Mikhail Gorbachev. 02:11.670 --> 02:16.670 Russian authorities also shuttered the country's last independent radio station, Echo of Moscow. 02:17.250 --> 02:22.250 It's banned Facebook, too, though Russians can still use apps like Telegram, WhatsApp 02:22.780 --> 02:24.799 and Instagram, for now. 02:24.799 --> 02:29.799 Instead, the government is steering propaganda at even the youngest Russians, releasing this 02:31.730 --> 02:36.730 virtual lesson on -- quote -- "why the liberation mission in Ukraine is necessary." 02:37.049 --> 02:38.799 TUCKER CARLSON, FOX News: Good evening. 02:38.799 --> 02:43.799 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And Russian disinformation gets a boost from some U.S. media as well. 02:44.359 --> 02:49.359 FOX News' Tucker Carlson has repeatedly criticized U.S. involvement in Ukraine and expressed 02:50.189 --> 02:54.550 support for Putin, and those clips have made it onto Russian news. 02:54.550 --> 02:56.609 TUCKER CARLSON: People are so ghoulish. 02:56.609 --> 02:58.080 And, of course, they're promoting war. 02:58.080 --> 03:03.080 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In the U.S., Carlson's view is just one of many that Americans can listen 03:04.850 --> 03:06.790 to and weigh for themselves. 03:06.790 --> 03:11.790 But, as the carnage of Putin's war continues, the reality for many Russians is only as real 03:13.799 --> 03:16.510 as their government allows. 03:16.510 --> 03:18.930 And joining me now is Anton Shirikov. 03:18.930 --> 03:23.930 He researches disinformation and propaganda inside Russia at the University of Wisconsin. 03:24.580 --> 03:27.349 Anton, very good to have you on the "NewsHour." 03:27.349 --> 03:32.349 So, we touched on a little bit of the media that the Russian people are seeing? 03:33.279 --> 03:38.279 Can you give us a better sense of what the average Russian is seeing about Ukraine on 03:38.599 --> 03:39.599 their news? 03:39.599 --> 03:40.799 ANTON SHIRIKOV, University of Wisconsin: Yes. 03:40.799 --> 03:43.150 Thank you for having me there, first of all. 03:43.150 --> 03:48.150 So, what Russians are seeing is mainly that there is some military action going on in 03:49.459 --> 03:54.459 Ukraine, but this is all very targeted, this is targeted against Nazi battalions, against 03:55.549 --> 03:56.549 military infrastructure. 03:56.549 --> 03:59.760 It doesn't hurt any civilians. 03:59.760 --> 04:04.760 And most Ukrainians are welcoming Russians.They want to get rid of their corrupt and fascist 04:08.870 --> 04:10.150 government. 04:10.150 --> 04:13.670 But the government is resisting and government forces are resisting. 04:13.670 --> 04:18.091 And so that's why Russian forces are in Ukraine. 04:18.091 --> 04:22.830 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And these depictions of certain parts of Ukrainian society being fascist 04:22.830 --> 04:27.830 or Nazi, as you're mentioning, those, as you have written, tie into a fairly long history 04:30.340 --> 04:33.420 as far as Russian information about Ukrainians. 04:33.420 --> 04:34.730 Can you explain that a bit more? 04:34.730 --> 04:39.540 ANTON SHIRIKOV: There is a long history, so Ukraine has been a thorn in Putin's side, 04:39.540 --> 04:42.070 in Kremlin's side for quite. 04:42.070 --> 04:46.620 Ukraine had a couple of successful social revolutions, where pro-Russian governments 04:46.620 --> 04:48.170 were toppled. 04:48.170 --> 04:53.170 And the Kremlin has been trying to portray all those revolutions and the democratic development 04:54.390 --> 04:59.390 in Ukraine since then as these corrupt attempts to install a regime that doesn't have public 05:02.630 --> 05:05.950 support, that is installed by the West. 05:05.950 --> 05:10.950 And so -- and that ties into this wider narrative that the Russian government is promoting that 05:14.410 --> 05:19.410 NATO and the West are behind most of Russia's troubles, and this is one of them. 05:20.790 --> 05:25.790 And they are speaking to this -- to this grievance that Russia has, Russians have because of 05:26.480 --> 05:31.480 the Soviet collapse, because of the West winning this Cold War, and that this is what the government 05:32.660 --> 05:33.680 is trying to exploit. 05:33.680 --> 05:37.300 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And can I ask you sort of a chicken-or-the-egg question? 05:37.300 --> 05:42.300 Is this -- does this media feed into people's preconceived notions or does this media create 05:44.690 --> 05:45.690 those notions? 05:45.690 --> 05:47.940 ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think it's both. 05:47.940 --> 05:52.940 So, there is definitely a lot of grievances about the West, a lot of bad feelings towards 05:55.160 --> 05:57.020 the West. 05:57.020 --> 06:02.020 But what propaganda does, it builds on those and it constantly provides information that's 06:02.900 --> 06:06.110 consistent with those beliefs. 06:06.110 --> 06:11.110 And if you repeat this, if you throw a lot of those false narratives, then people -- over 06:12.530 --> 06:14.060 time, people get used to them. 06:14.060 --> 06:19.060 And they sort of start think -- they believe - - they feel like they have believed this 06:20.410 --> 06:22.490 already before. 06:22.490 --> 06:25.700 So, this is a feedback loop, essentially. 06:25.700 --> 06:30.700 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We have been hearing certain reports of Ukrainians calling family members 06:31.360 --> 06:36.360 in Russia, saying, we're under attack, the bombs are going off, and that their relatives 06:36.460 --> 06:38.990 in Russia are saying, what are you talking about? 06:38.990 --> 06:39.990 That's not happening. 06:39.990 --> 06:44.990 I mean, that has got to be an incredibly jarring experience for Ukrainians, to have their basic 06:45.530 --> 06:46.970 reality being denied. 06:46.970 --> 06:48.711 ANTON SHIRIKOV: Yes, that is terrible. 06:48.711 --> 06:49.711 That is absurd. 06:49.711 --> 06:54.711 I mean, I, myself, having relatives in Russia, have had a similar experience. 06:56.270 --> 07:01.270 When I say that, yes, Ukrainian cities are bombed by Russians, they say, no, nothing 07:02.440 --> 07:04.210 like that is happening. 07:04.210 --> 07:08.250 It's just those Nazi battalions that are making provocations. 07:08.250 --> 07:12.810 They are just pretending that there is something going on. 07:12.810 --> 07:15.390 But, really, we are there to help. 07:15.390 --> 07:16.390 That's it. 07:16.390 --> 07:20.810 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Given that there are these other social media and messaging apps, like 07:20.810 --> 07:25.810 Instagram and Telegram and WhatsApp that are available, can people get an accurate portrayal 07:27.420 --> 07:29.730 of what's happening in Ukraine if they want it? 07:29.730 --> 07:32.260 ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think, if they want it, they still could. 07:32.260 --> 07:37.260 So, on Telegram, there are -- there are still channels that cover Ukraine truthfully, or 07:38.990 --> 07:41.120 - - more or less. 07:41.120 --> 07:42.200 People can use a VPN. 07:42.200 --> 07:46.200 They could go to one of the independent media Web sites that are still working. 07:46.200 --> 07:51.200 They're working mostly from outside of Russia, but they're available yet. 07:51.490 --> 07:54.140 So, if you want, you can. 07:54.140 --> 07:57.800 But most people in Russia still don't seem like they want it. 07:57.800 --> 08:02.690 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: There are seemingly some signs that this facade is starting to crack. 08:02.690 --> 08:07.690 We read some reports today about some state broadcasters mentioning that the sanctions 08:07.970 --> 08:12.970 are biting quite hard in Russia, and perhaps the president ought to consider dialing back, 08:14.560 --> 08:16.680 as they call it, this limited operation. 08:16.680 --> 08:18.730 Do you think that that is real? 08:18.730 --> 08:20.960 Do you think that facade will continue to crack? 08:20.960 --> 08:24.520 ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think that's the billion-dollar question for now. 08:24.520 --> 08:29.520 So, there are probably some people who -- some anchors, some people on TV who said something 08:30.200 --> 08:31.200 like that. 08:31.200 --> 08:36.200 But the question is, if this dissent would be eliminated quickly, I think the government 08:39.649 --> 08:44.649 will still be able to hold this impression of winning, of being on the right side for 08:48.050 --> 08:49.160 some time. 08:49.160 --> 08:54.160 But I think what's more important is that people would still start feeling the new reality 08:54.480 --> 08:59.480 soon, because of the sanctions, because of - - unfortunately, because of the bodies that 08:59.829 --> 09:02.160 are coming home from Ukraine. 09:02.160 --> 09:07.160 So, I think that might have more -- a deeper impact on Russians' perceptions of the war. 09:08.980 --> 09:10.000 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right. 09:10.000 --> 09:13.440 There's a certain level that you just simply can't escape, the fact that your economy is 09:13.440 --> 09:16.000 tanking and your people are dying. 09:16.000 --> 09:19.100 Anton Shirikov from the University of Wisconsin, thank you so much for being here. 09:19.100 --> 09:20.249 ANTON SHIRIKOV: Thank you.