1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,920 JUDY WOODRUFF: CIA Director William Burns told the Senate Intelligence Committee today 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:09,920 that he believes Russia's President Vladimir Putin is losing the so-called information 3 00:00:10,499 --> 00:00:15,499 war over Ukraine, and that this may chip away at his domestic support for the invasion. 4 00:00:16,750 --> 00:00:21,750 But what exactly are Russian citizens hearing about this war on Russian media? 5 00:00:22,369 --> 00:00:23,890 William Brangham explains. 6 00:00:23,890 --> 00:00:28,890 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: On TV screens and social media feeds around the world, it's an endless 7 00:00:29,660 --> 00:00:33,690 stream of the brutality and terror of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 8 00:00:33,690 --> 00:00:35,460 MAN (through translator): They behave like fascists. 9 00:00:35,460 --> 00:00:38,800 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But, in Russia, the script is flipped upside-down. 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,800 And, for Russian citizens, this means they're seeing a distorted reality of their nation's 11 00:00:44,610 --> 00:00:45,610 war. 12 00:00:45,610 --> 00:00:49,059 SERGEY LAVROV, Russian Foreign Minister (through translator): We didn't attack Ukraine. 13 00:00:49,059 --> 00:00:53,530 As we have been explaining many times, they created the threats against the Russian Federation. 14 00:00:53,530 --> 00:00:58,530 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov today repeated this false accusation. 15 00:00:59,269 --> 00:01:02,910 It was the same one Putin used as pretense for launching the invasion. 16 00:01:02,910 --> 00:01:06,550 VLADIMIR PUTIN, Russian President (through translator): We will strive for the demilitarization 17 00:01:06,550 --> 00:01:11,000 and denazification of Ukraine, and will bring to justice those who committed multiple bloody 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,510 crimes against civilians. 19 00:01:12,510 --> 00:01:17,510 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Putin said he was launching a limited military operation, one intended 20 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:22,370 to save Ukrainians from a genocide. 21 00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:24,220 It's a familiar distortion. 22 00:01:24,220 --> 00:01:29,220 It's one Putin used in a speech announcing his annexation of Crimea, a peninsula in Ukraine, 23 00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:30,370 back in 2014. 24 00:01:30,370 --> 00:01:34,430 VLADIMIR PUTIN (through translator): The initiators of that coup d'etat were nationalists, anti-Semites, 25 00:01:34,430 --> 00:01:35,430 radicals. 26 00:01:35,430 --> 00:01:40,430 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Now the Kremlin is tightening the reins on the media even more. 27 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:45,600 Last week, Putin signed a law that effectively criminalizes accurate reporting about the 28 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:46,680 war. 29 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,160 Even the word war is banned. 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,160 Publishing so-called false information is now punishable with up to 15 years in prison. 31 00:01:54,850 --> 00:01:58,710 The government forced independent channel TV Rain to close. 32 00:01:58,710 --> 00:02:03,710 Its editors signed off by playing "Swan Lake," a clear jab at the government, which played 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,960 the same loop on state TV in 1991 when a failed coup was under way against Mikhail Gorbachev. 34 00:02:11,670 --> 00:02:16,670 Russian authorities also shuttered the country's last independent radio station, Echo of Moscow. 35 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:22,250 It's banned Facebook, too, though Russians can still use apps like Telegram, WhatsApp 36 00:02:22,780 --> 00:02:24,799 and Instagram, for now. 37 00:02:24,799 --> 00:02:29,799 Instead, the government is steering propaganda at even the youngest Russians, releasing this 38 00:02:31,730 --> 00:02:36,730 virtual lesson on -- quote -- "why the liberation mission in Ukraine is necessary." 39 00:02:37,049 --> 00:02:38,799 TUCKER CARLSON, FOX News: Good evening. 40 00:02:38,799 --> 00:02:43,799 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And Russian disinformation gets a boost from some U.S. media as well. 41 00:02:44,359 --> 00:02:49,359 FOX News' Tucker Carlson has repeatedly criticized U.S. involvement in Ukraine and expressed 42 00:02:50,189 --> 00:02:54,550 support for Putin, and those clips have made it onto Russian news. 43 00:02:54,550 --> 00:02:56,609 TUCKER CARLSON: People are so ghoulish. 44 00:02:56,609 --> 00:02:58,080 And, of course, they're promoting war. 45 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:03,080 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In the U.S., Carlson's view is just one of many that Americans can listen 46 00:03:04,850 --> 00:03:06,790 to and weigh for themselves. 47 00:03:06,790 --> 00:03:11,790 But, as the carnage of Putin's war continues, the reality for many Russians is only as real 48 00:03:13,799 --> 00:03:16,510 as their government allows. 49 00:03:16,510 --> 00:03:18,930 And joining me now is Anton Shirikov. 50 00:03:18,930 --> 00:03:23,930 He researches disinformation and propaganda inside Russia at the University of Wisconsin. 51 00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:27,349 Anton, very good to have you on the "NewsHour." 52 00:03:27,349 --> 00:03:32,349 So, we touched on a little bit of the media that the Russian people are seeing? 53 00:03:33,279 --> 00:03:38,279 Can you give us a better sense of what the average Russian is seeing about Ukraine on 54 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:39,599 their news? 55 00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:40,799 ANTON SHIRIKOV, University of Wisconsin: Yes. 56 00:03:40,799 --> 00:03:43,150 Thank you for having me there, first of all. 57 00:03:43,150 --> 00:03:48,150 So, what Russians are seeing is mainly that there is some military action going on in 58 00:03:49,459 --> 00:03:54,459 Ukraine, but this is all very targeted, this is targeted against Nazi battalions, against 59 00:03:55,549 --> 00:03:56,549 military infrastructure. 60 00:03:56,549 --> 00:03:59,760 It doesn't hurt any civilians. 61 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,760 And most Ukrainians are welcoming Russians.They want to get rid of their corrupt and fascist 62 00:04:08,870 --> 00:04:10,150 government. 63 00:04:10,150 --> 00:04:13,670 But the government is resisting and government forces are resisting. 64 00:04:13,670 --> 00:04:18,091 And so that's why Russian forces are in Ukraine. 65 00:04:18,091 --> 00:04:22,830 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And these depictions of certain parts of Ukrainian society being fascist 66 00:04:22,830 --> 00:04:27,830 or Nazi, as you're mentioning, those, as you have written, tie into a fairly long history 67 00:04:30,340 --> 00:04:33,420 as far as Russian information about Ukrainians. 68 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:34,730 Can you explain that a bit more? 69 00:04:34,730 --> 00:04:39,540 ANTON SHIRIKOV: There is a long history, so Ukraine has been a thorn in Putin's side, 70 00:04:39,540 --> 00:04:42,070 in Kremlin's side for quite. 71 00:04:42,070 --> 00:04:46,620 Ukraine had a couple of successful social revolutions, where pro-Russian governments 72 00:04:46,620 --> 00:04:48,170 were toppled. 73 00:04:48,170 --> 00:04:53,170 And the Kremlin has been trying to portray all those revolutions and the democratic development 74 00:04:54,390 --> 00:04:59,390 in Ukraine since then as these corrupt attempts to install a regime that doesn't have public 75 00:05:02,630 --> 00:05:05,950 support, that is installed by the West. 76 00:05:05,950 --> 00:05:10,950 And so -- and that ties into this wider narrative that the Russian government is promoting that 77 00:05:14,410 --> 00:05:19,410 NATO and the West are behind most of Russia's troubles, and this is one of them. 78 00:05:20,790 --> 00:05:25,790 And they are speaking to this -- to this grievance that Russia has, Russians have because of 79 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,480 the Soviet collapse, because of the West winning this Cold War, and that this is what the government 80 00:05:32,660 --> 00:05:33,680 is trying to exploit. 81 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,300 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And can I ask you sort of a chicken-or-the-egg question? 82 00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:42,300 Is this -- does this media feed into people's preconceived notions or does this media create 83 00:05:44,690 --> 00:05:45,690 those notions? 84 00:05:45,690 --> 00:05:47,940 ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think it's both. 85 00:05:47,940 --> 00:05:52,940 So, there is definitely a lot of grievances about the West, a lot of bad feelings towards 86 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,020 the West. 87 00:05:57,020 --> 00:06:02,020 But what propaganda does, it builds on those and it constantly provides information that's 88 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:06,110 consistent with those beliefs. 89 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:11,110 And if you repeat this, if you throw a lot of those false narratives, then people -- over 90 00:06:12,530 --> 00:06:14,060 time, people get used to them. 91 00:06:14,060 --> 00:06:19,060 And they sort of start think -- they believe - - they feel like they have believed this 92 00:06:20,410 --> 00:06:22,490 already before. 93 00:06:22,490 --> 00:06:25,700 So, this is a feedback loop, essentially. 94 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:30,700 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We have been hearing certain reports of Ukrainians calling family members 95 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,360 in Russia, saying, we're under attack, the bombs are going off, and that their relatives 96 00:06:36,460 --> 00:06:38,990 in Russia are saying, what are you talking about? 97 00:06:38,990 --> 00:06:39,990 That's not happening. 98 00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:44,990 I mean, that has got to be an incredibly jarring experience for Ukrainians, to have their basic 99 00:06:45,530 --> 00:06:46,970 reality being denied. 100 00:06:46,970 --> 00:06:48,711 ANTON SHIRIKOV: Yes, that is terrible. 101 00:06:48,711 --> 00:06:49,711 That is absurd. 102 00:06:49,711 --> 00:06:54,711 I mean, I, myself, having relatives in Russia, have had a similar experience. 103 00:06:56,270 --> 00:07:01,270 When I say that, yes, Ukrainian cities are bombed by Russians, they say, no, nothing 104 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,210 like that is happening. 105 00:07:04,210 --> 00:07:08,250 It's just those Nazi battalions that are making provocations. 106 00:07:08,250 --> 00:07:12,810 They are just pretending that there is something going on. 107 00:07:12,810 --> 00:07:15,390 But, really, we are there to help. 108 00:07:15,390 --> 00:07:16,390 That's it. 109 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:20,810 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Given that there are these other social media and messaging apps, like 110 00:07:20,810 --> 00:07:25,810 Instagram and Telegram and WhatsApp that are available, can people get an accurate portrayal 111 00:07:27,420 --> 00:07:29,730 of what's happening in Ukraine if they want it? 112 00:07:29,730 --> 00:07:32,260 ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think, if they want it, they still could. 113 00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:37,260 So, on Telegram, there are -- there are still channels that cover Ukraine truthfully, or 114 00:07:38,990 --> 00:07:41,120 - - more or less. 115 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,200 People can use a VPN. 116 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,200 They could go to one of the independent media Web sites that are still working. 117 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:51,200 They're working mostly from outside of Russia, but they're available yet. 118 00:07:51,490 --> 00:07:54,140 So, if you want, you can. 119 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:57,800 But most people in Russia still don't seem like they want it. 120 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,690 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: There are seemingly some signs that this facade is starting to crack. 121 00:08:02,690 --> 00:08:07,690 We read some reports today about some state broadcasters mentioning that the sanctions 122 00:08:07,970 --> 00:08:12,970 are biting quite hard in Russia, and perhaps the president ought to consider dialing back, 123 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,680 as they call it, this limited operation. 124 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,730 Do you think that that is real? 125 00:08:18,730 --> 00:08:20,960 Do you think that facade will continue to crack? 126 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,520 ANTON SHIRIKOV: I think that's the billion-dollar question for now. 127 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,520 So, there are probably some people who -- some anchors, some people on TV who said something 128 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,200 like that. 129 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:36,200 But the question is, if this dissent would be eliminated quickly, I think the government 130 00:08:39,649 --> 00:08:44,649 will still be able to hold this impression of winning, of being on the right side for 131 00:08:48,050 --> 00:08:49,160 some time. 132 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:54,160 But I think what's more important is that people would still start feeling the new reality 133 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,480 soon, because of the sanctions, because of - - unfortunately, because of the bodies that 134 00:08:59,829 --> 00:09:02,160 are coming home from Ukraine. 135 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,160 So, I think that might have more -- a deeper impact on Russians' perceptions of the war. 136 00:09:08,980 --> 00:09:10,000 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right. 137 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,440 There's a certain level that you just simply can't escape, the fact that your economy is 138 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,000 tanking and your people are dying. 139 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,100 Anton Shirikov from the University of Wisconsin, thank you so much for being here. 140 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:20,249 ANTON SHIRIKOV: Thank you.