WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:03.966 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% HARI SREENIVASAN: We turn now to part two of the fight over a controversial and once 00:03.966 --> 00:06.500 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% classified memo. 00:06.500 --> 00:10.500 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% Earlier this month, House Intelligence chairman Devin Nunes released a Republican memo about 00:10.500 --> 00:13.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the handling of one piece of the Russia investigation. 00:13.166 --> 00:17.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Over the weekend, Democrats served up their own version of the document. 00:17.200 --> 00:19.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Lisa Desjardins takes a closer look. 00:19.333 --> 00:23.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: This memo, 10 pages long and partially redacted, rebuts a key claim 00:23.633 --> 00:28.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% made by the previous one, that federal law enforcement abused its powers when it sought 00:28.400 --> 00:33.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% so-called FISA wiretaps on former Trump campaign aide Carter Page in late 2016. 00:35.600 --> 00:39.200 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% In a weekend tweet, the president called this latest memo, prepared by the top Democrat 00:39.200 --> 00:44.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% on House intelligence, Representative Adam Schiff, a total political and legal bust. 00:45.033 --> 00:46.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% What is exactly? 00:46.033 --> 00:48.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Let's talk to Jamil Jaffer. 00:48.566 --> 00:51.900 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% He was senior counsel for the House Intelligence Committee from 2011 to 2013, also served at 00:51.900 --> 00:56.900 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% the Justice Department's National Security Division during the George W. Bush administration. 00:57.533 --> 00:59.633 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Thank you. 00:59.633 --> 01:02.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% There's much to say and a lot of frenzy here, but let's cut to sort of the main point. 01:02.200 --> 01:07.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% The original memo charged that the FBI and DOJ put a hand on the scale early on in this 01:09.300 --> 01:13.300 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% Russia investigation by not disclosing that one of their key sources had political motivation. 01:15.366 --> 01:18.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What did this new Democratic memo add to that? 01:18.400 --> 01:20.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JAMIL JAFFER, Former Senior Counsel, House Intelligence Committee: Well, I think it's 01:20.400 --> 01:23.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% pretty clear now that the Justice Department did in fact disclose to the court that there 01:23.533 --> 01:26.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% were political motivations behind the Steele dossier. 01:26.333 --> 01:28.400 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Right? 01:28.400 --> 01:31.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And the only question now is, did they use the words Hillary Clinton and Democratic campaign? 01:31.400 --> 01:34.966 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% The answer to that is no, but they didn't do that in part because they were redacting 01:34.966 --> 01:37.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% out the names of U.S. persons and U.S. entities. 01:37.400 --> 01:39.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so should they have said more? 01:39.766 --> 01:41.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Hard to know. 01:41.066 --> 01:43.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But I think that is what the debate is about now. 01:43.166 --> 01:45.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% We now know that in fact they did tell the court that there were political motivations 01:45.700 --> 01:47.266 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% behind it. 01:47.266 --> 01:49.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: So, let's unpack that a little bit. 01:49.400 --> 01:51.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% The Steele dossier, many of our views may know, because it has sort of some scintillating 01:51.233 --> 01:53.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% information alleged against the president. 01:53.466 --> 01:55.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Some of that has been debunked. 01:55.666 --> 02:00.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And that information originally was gathered by a conservative funding source. 02:01.566 --> 02:03.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Later, Democrats paid for that. 02:03.566 --> 02:05.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It ended up in the FBI's hands. 02:05.633 --> 02:10.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And you're saying is, this memo today tells us that while the FBI did disclose there was 02:11.533 --> 02:13.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a political motivation, but not exactly who it came from? 02:13.100 --> 02:15.166 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% JAMIL JAFFER: Exactly. 02:15.166 --> 02:18.766 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% And it says -- what it says is that people who want to discredit campaign one, the Trump 02:18.766 --> 02:23.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% campaign, were gathering this information, right, and that they had paid the source for 02:23.133 --> 02:24.566 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% this information. 02:24.566 --> 02:26.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So, you know, from the context, it's fairly clear. 02:26.500 --> 02:30.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean, the court could easily assume who was paying for this. 02:30.433 --> 02:34.600 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% But they weren't exactly transparent about that exact point as to which campaign it was 02:34.600 --> 02:36.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and who was involved. 02:36.033 --> 02:37.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The Republican memo suggests they should have been. 02:37.866 --> 02:39.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The Democratic memo says, well, they told the court enough. 02:39.933 --> 02:44.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Now the American people now have an honest sort of debate between the two about who's 02:44.100 --> 02:45.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% got it right here. 02:45.833 --> 02:47.900 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% LISA DESJARDINS: Can you help us understand then what's normal procedure? 02:47.900 --> 02:51.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% You have been on both sides, the oversight side and the filing application side. 02:51.533 --> 02:55.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Is it normal to just say there was someone who was politically motivated, we're not saying 02:55.533 --> 03:00.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% from which party, involved here, or is it more the common procedure to say Democrats 03:01.866 --> 03:03.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% were doing this or Republicans were doing this? 03:03.300 --> 03:05.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% JAMIL JAFFER: Well, it varies, when it comes to FISAs. 03:05.233 --> 03:07.333 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Right? 03:07.333 --> 03:09.600 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% What you want to do is, you want to give the court enough information about the context 03:09.600 --> 03:13.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% and about the information so the court can judge, is this reliable information on which 03:13.000 --> 03:16.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% to depend when it's making its decision about whether to grant the court order and whether 03:16.633 --> 03:20.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% there's probable cause to believe that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power. 03:20.166 --> 03:24.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Now, at the same time, depending on which side of that debate you fall on, you might 03:24.133 --> 03:26.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% want to give the court more or less information. 03:26.233 --> 03:28.800 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% The goal is to give the court as much information as it needs to make its judgment. 03:28.800 --> 03:32.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Here, they were clear about the political motivations behind the memo. 03:32.400 --> 03:34.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They were not clear specifically about which side. 03:34.433 --> 03:38.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And that's partly because they take efforts to protect the privacy of U.S. persons involved 03:38.300 --> 03:42.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% and they typically redact out U.S. persons' names and put in U.S. person one or U.S. entity 03:42.566 --> 03:43.566 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% one. 03:43.566 --> 03:45.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% That's not unusual. 03:45.666 --> 03:48.333 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Let's take a bigger step back also at this overall investigation. 03:48.333 --> 03:53.333 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Does today's memo shed any light on what we know about Russian meddling and whether there 03:55.333 --> 03:57.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% were any contacts or any collusion between Russians and U.S. officials, including the 03:57.900 --> 04:00.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Trump campaign or the Trump White House? 04:00.100 --> 04:01.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Do we learn anything more? 04:01.266 --> 04:03.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Is this just a tempest in a teapot? 04:03.366 --> 04:05.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JAMIL JAFFER: So, I think, in a lot of ways, what we know now about Carter Page is that 04:05.900 --> 04:09.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Carter Page, there were a lot of reasons to surveil him, right, beyond the dossier. 04:09.066 --> 04:12.833 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% LISA DESJARDINS: Just a reminder, he was at one point, for a few months, a foreign policy 04:12.833 --> 04:13.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% adviser to the Trump campaign. 04:13.933 --> 04:16.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% JAMIL JAFFER: That's right. 04:16.000 --> 04:18.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Of course, this FISA took place after he had left the campaign already and was disassociated 04:18.733 --> 04:20.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% with the campaign. 04:20.200 --> 04:22.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But there were good reasons to surveil Carter Page. 04:22.266 --> 04:23.966 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Now, ultimately, it looks like that investigation hasn't come to anything. 04:23.966 --> 04:26.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But there were good reasons at the time to do that. 04:26.100 --> 04:30.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% That all being said, what we did know about the larger context is in fact there was a 04:30.033 --> 04:32.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Russian effort to influence our elections. 04:32.100 --> 04:36.933 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% It's actually an effort that continues today to influence our trust in our system. 04:37.400 --> 04:39.433 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Right? 04:39.433 --> 04:41.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And this partisan infighting about Carter Page in the memos is actually really playing 04:41.500 --> 04:43.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% into the Russians' hands in a lot of ways. 04:43.566 --> 04:45.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And it's something that we as a country need to think about and come together and say, 04:45.900 --> 04:48.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% look, this is a very real threat by a foreign nation state. 04:48.033 --> 04:50.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% We need to respond to that, and respond aggressively. 04:50.633 --> 04:54.033 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: People trying to pay attention to this investigation, what would you recommend? 04:54.033 --> 04:55.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What matters and what is distraction? 04:55.533 --> 04:57.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% JAMIL JAFFER: Yes. 04:57.533 --> 05:00.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I think what matters here is, if you believe there was a problem at the FBI or there were 05:00.300 --> 05:02.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% issues going on, what's the evidence of that? 05:02.133 --> 05:04.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And if it's there, let's figure out how to fix that. 05:04.200 --> 05:07.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% But let's not get caught up in this back and forth about Republicans, Democrats, right, 05:07.533 --> 05:12.033 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% this whole thing, this fight between Schiff and Nunes on one hand. 05:12.033 --> 05:15.966 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% And really what you need to focus on is, was there a problem and was there political influence 05:15.966 --> 05:16.966 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% here? 05:16.966 --> 05:19.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% If there was, let's fix it. 05:19.033 --> 05:21.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% If there wasn't -- but this doesn't bespeak a larger problem with the FISA process, because, 05:21.133 --> 05:25.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% ultimately, that process has worked pretty well and is very effective at combating threats 05:25.433 --> 05:26.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to our national security. 05:26.433 --> 05:28.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% We need to focus on that. 05:28.400 --> 05:30.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And there is today a very real threat to our national security . And that is a Russian 05:30.133 --> 05:32.500 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% effort to influence our body politic, which is a real problem. 05:32.500 --> 05:35.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% LISA DESJARDINS: Jamil Jaffer, you have seen that process from the halls of Congress and 05:35.666 --> 05:36.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% from the Department of Justice. 05:36.666 --> 05:37.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Thank you for joining us. 05:37.833 --> 05:37.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% JAMIL JAFFER: Thanks for having me.