1 00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:05,300 JUDY WOODRUFF: Today, two United Nations investigators unveiled an extraordinary charge: that the 2 00:00:07,266 --> 00:00:10,366 powerful crown prince of Saudi Arabia was possibly personally involved in the hacking 3 00:00:12,333 --> 00:00:15,433 of one of the world's richest men and the owner of The Washington Post. 4 00:00:15,433 --> 00:00:17,266 Nick Schifrin is back with that story. 5 00:00:17,266 --> 00:00:20,933 NICK SCHIFRIN: Judy, here's the story the U.N. allege. 6 00:00:20,933 --> 00:00:25,933 In May 2018, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman met Washington Post owner and Amazon 7 00:00:27,866 --> 00:00:31,233 founder Jeff Bezos, and started messaging Bezos on the phone application WhatsApp. 8 00:00:31,233 --> 00:00:36,233 Salman sent Bezos an MP4 video that contained software allowing Bezos' phoned to be hacked. 9 00:00:38,533 --> 00:00:43,500 Hours later, the phone started uploading all of Bezos' private data and messages. 10 00:00:46,033 --> 00:00:48,766 Five months later, Saudi agents murdered Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi. When The Post 11 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,533 started investigating, Salman once again sent Bezos messages, this time about Bezos' affair 12 00:00:56,466 --> 00:00:59,666 that hadn't yet gone public. Bezos described it as -- quote -- "blackmail." 13 00:00:59,666 --> 00:01:04,633 And, today, the U.N. described it as Salman's likely personal attempt to -- quote -- "influence, 14 00:01:05,766 --> 00:01:08,700 if not silence" The Washington Post. 15 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:13,700 One of the investigators is the U.N. special rapporteur on summary executions and extrajudicial 16 00:01:15,100 --> 00:01:17,033 killings, Agnes Callamard, and she joins me now. 17 00:01:17,033 --> 00:01:19,700 Welcome back to "NewsHour." Thank you very much. 18 00:01:19,700 --> 00:01:24,700 Why do you believe that Mohammed bin Salman would likely personally be involved with this? 19 00:01:26,666 --> 00:01:28,366 AGNES CALLAMARD, U.N. Special Rapporteur: Well, that's what the evidence is pointing 20 00:01:28,366 --> 00:01:30,300 to. 21 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:34,366 The forensic investigation conducted by the FTI consultancy firm and backed up by four 22 00:01:36,733 --> 00:01:40,900 independent cybersecurity experts that we contacted reached a similar conclusion. The 23 00:01:44,066 --> 00:01:49,033 likelihood that the hacking originated from the WhatsApp account of -- owned by Mohammed 24 00:01:51,033 --> 00:01:55,233 bin Salman is very high, and it is, in fact, the only hypothesis that could explain the 25 00:01:56,066 --> 00:01:58,133 hacking. 26 00:01:58,133 --> 00:02:02,033 So our conclusion was reinforced through the very robust process that we undertook in order 27 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,466 to check the conclusion by the initial foreign expert. And that led us today to release this 28 00:02:10,533 --> 00:02:15,466 information to inform the public, but also to send a warning to ensure that the wakeup 29 00:02:18,066 --> 00:02:22,400 call is being made that we are working, confronting, facing a technology that we are not controlling. 30 00:02:26,066 --> 00:02:30,966 NICK SCHIFRIN: I want to get to that technology a little bit later, but I do need to read 31 00:02:30,966 --> 00:02:33,666 you what the Saudi government has said. 32 00:02:33,666 --> 00:02:38,600 As you have seen, the Saudi official told us the kingdom rejected your conclusions and 33 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,433 that -- quote -- "Saudi Arabia doesn't conduct illicit activities." 34 00:02:42,433 --> 00:02:47,433 And here's what the Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan had to say earlier: 35 00:02:49,500 --> 00:02:51,733 FAISAL BIN FARHAN AL SAUD, Saudi Foreign Minister: The idea that the conference would hack Jeff 36 00:02:51,733 --> 00:02:54,566 Bezos' phone is absolutely silly. 37 00:02:54,566 --> 00:02:59,133 And my understanding of the U.N. report, it's not actually a report. It's a statement based 38 00:02:59,133 --> 00:03:04,100 on a report by a private company that has not been vetted by an independent agency, 39 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:09,433 and that, in its own conclusions, no hard evidence to substantiate the claims it's making. 40 00:03:11,633 --> 00:03:15,100 NICK SCHIFRIN: So do you have hard evidence to substantiate the claims? 41 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:17,133 AGNES CALLAMARD: Absolutely. 42 00:03:17,133 --> 00:03:21,600 First of all, the FTI consultancy firm is composed of some of the best experts. It was 43 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,533 vetted, because investigation into Mr. Bezos' phone is part of an ongoing FBI investigation. 44 00:03:31,233 --> 00:03:36,033 Therefore, the work by the team and the team was vetted by the FBI. 45 00:03:36,033 --> 00:03:41,033 I have already described to you the process that we followed to check the information 46 00:03:42,266 --> 00:03:44,766 and the conclusion of the FTI. 47 00:03:44,766 --> 00:03:49,766 I should add that, because the FTI review to have the phone was part of an investigation, 48 00:03:51,933 --> 00:03:56,900 it was conducted under the most stringent conditions, including with regard to the chain 49 00:03:56,900 --> 00:03:59,000 of evidence. 50 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,866 I have very -- I have no doubt that FTI and our independent expert looked at, considered 51 00:04:05,433 --> 00:04:10,433 all the options before concluded that the hacking originated from the WhatsApp account 52 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:17,666 owned by the crown prince. 53 00:04:17,666 --> 00:04:21,533 NICK SCHIFRIN: So let's talk about the context for this a little bit. 54 00:04:21,533 --> 00:04:26,166 You write that this is part of a broader crackdown launched by the kingdom against its critics. 55 00:04:26,166 --> 00:04:30,633 We have certainly interviewed people in this country also who described some of that crackdown. 56 00:04:30,633 --> 00:04:35,633 But the kingdom itself says Khashoggi's murder was done by rogue actors, that they're punishing 57 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,666 those people, and that this won't happen again. 58 00:04:39,666 --> 00:04:41,533 Do you acknowledge those Saudi steps? 59 00:04:41,533 --> 00:04:44,733 AGNES CALLAMARD: No, I don't. 60 00:04:44,733 --> 00:04:49,733 As I -- when I noted in the report I produced in June, this -- the king of the killing of 61 00:04:51,766 --> 00:04:55,666 Jamal Khashoggi was a violation of international law. First of all, it's not a domestic matter. 62 00:04:57,633 --> 00:05:02,400 Second of all, a range of international legal standards were violated, none of which have 63 00:05:03,833 --> 00:05:07,366 been taken care of through the Saudi investigation. 64 00:05:07,366 --> 00:05:12,366 Thirdly, and most importantly, the Saudi investigation completely failed to tackle the issue of the 65 00:05:14,766 --> 00:05:19,366 mastermind behind the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. They only focused on the hit men. And, indeed, 66 00:05:21,933 --> 00:05:26,933 even though they had originally charged some of the people that were higher up in the chain 67 00:05:28,366 --> 00:05:32,200 of command, they ended up not finding them guilty of anything. 68 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,200 So, all in all, the investigation and the prosecution by the Saudi authorities failed 69 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:42,366 to meet international standards and certainly didn't deliver justice. 70 00:05:42,366 --> 00:05:47,366 The killing of a journalist uncovers usually a web of corruption, a web of lies, and that 71 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:54,633 can go all the way to the highest level of a government. 72 00:05:54,633 --> 00:05:59,633 It is not unique to the case of Jamal Khashoggi, but it is a pattern that we found in many 73 00:06:01,633 --> 00:06:05,700 other killings. This web of corruption, of lies have not been untangled through the Saudi 74 00:06:08,566 --> 00:06:10,566 investigation. 75 00:06:10,566 --> 00:06:14,566 And this is why I'm calling for -- you know, the allegation that we have released today, 76 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:21,400 one more element demonstrating the centrality of the state of Saudi Arabia, the centrality 77 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:28,333 of the crown prince of Saudi Arabia in the campaign -- and it is this campaign against 78 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:35,100 dissident that ultimately resulted into the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. 79 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:40,100 NICK SCHIFRIN: I only have about 45 seconds left, so I do want to get back to the technology 80 00:06:40,966 --> 00:06:42,066 that you mentioned at the top. 81 00:06:42,066 --> 00:06:44,033 AGNES CALLAMARD: Yes. 82 00:06:44,033 --> 00:06:46,733 NICK SCHIFRIN: In your statement today, you call for a moratorium on the global sale and 83 00:06:46,733 --> 00:06:49,566 transfer of private surveillance technology. 84 00:06:49,566 --> 00:06:54,066 But it seems to me that we have already crossed that Rubicon. Is there really anything we 85 00:06:54,066 --> 00:06:56,800 can do to try to rein in this kind of technology? 86 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,366 AGNES CALLAMARD: Well, we -- we don't have a choice. We have to rein it in, in the same 87 00:07:01,366 --> 00:07:06,366 way we have tried and sometimes succeeded in reining it -- some of the weapons that 88 00:07:07,466 --> 00:07:09,933 were found to be unlawful and illegal. 89 00:07:09,933 --> 00:07:14,933 Look, this technology is extremely difficult to trace, almost impossible to control. We 90 00:07:17,633 --> 00:07:22,633 have here an example of the richest man on Earth, with unlimited resources, and yet it 91 00:07:24,566 --> 00:07:28,766 took him several months to realize his phone was hacked, and it took three months of work 92 00:07:30,166 --> 00:07:34,566 by top-notch expert to uncover the source of the hacking. 93 00:07:36,466 --> 00:07:40,333 So this technology is a danger to all. It's a danger to national security and democratic 94 00:07:42,233 --> 00:07:47,233 processes in the United States. It targeted through Jeff Bezos' First Amendment, and, 95 00:07:48,866 --> 00:07:51,000 therefore, the American Constitution. 96 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,800 It targeted a central economic actor in the American system. Therefore, we have no choice. 97 00:07:58,766 --> 00:08:02,833 We need to control that technology. We must impose a moratorium. 98 00:08:02,833 --> 00:08:06,666 NICK SCHIFRIN: Agnes Callamard, U.N. special rapporteur, thank you very much. 99 00:08:06,666 --> 00:08:07,766 AGNES CALLAMARD: Thank you very much.