WEBVTT 00:02.300 --> 00:05.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Today, two United Nations investigators unveiled an extraordinary charge: that the 00:07.266 --> 00:10.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% powerful crown prince of Saudi Arabia was possibly personally involved in the hacking 00:12.333 --> 00:15.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of one of the world's richest men and the owner of The Washington Post. 00:15.433 --> 00:17.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Nick Schifrin is back with that story. 00:17.266 --> 00:20.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: Judy, here's the story the U.N. allege. 00:20.933 --> 00:25.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% In May 2018, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman met Washington Post owner and Amazon 00:27.866 --> 00:31.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% founder Jeff Bezos, and started messaging Bezos on the phone application WhatsApp. 00:31.233 --> 00:36.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Salman sent Bezos an MP4 video that contained software allowing Bezos' phoned to be hacked. 00:38.533 --> 00:43.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Hours later, the phone started uploading all of Bezos' private data and messages. 00:46.033 --> 00:48.766 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Five months later, Saudi agents murdered Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi. When The Post 00:50.800 --> 00:54.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% started investigating, Salman once again sent Bezos messages, this time about Bezos' affair 00:56.466 --> 00:59.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that hadn't yet gone public. Bezos described it as -- quote -- "blackmail." 00:59.666 --> 01:04.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And, today, the U.N. described it as Salman's likely personal attempt to -- quote -- "influence, 01:05.766 --> 01:08.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% if not silence" The Washington Post. 01:08.700 --> 01:13.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% One of the investigators is the U.N. special rapporteur on summary executions and extrajudicial 01:15.100 --> 01:17.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% killings, Agnes Callamard, and she joins me now. 01:17.033 --> 01:19.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Welcome back to "NewsHour." Thank you very much. 01:19.700 --> 01:24.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Why do you believe that Mohammed bin Salman would likely personally be involved with this? 01:26.666 --> 01:28.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AGNES CALLAMARD, U.N. Special Rapporteur: Well, that's what the evidence is pointing 01:28.366 --> 01:30.300 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% to. 01:30.300 --> 01:34.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The forensic investigation conducted by the FTI consultancy firm and backed up by four 01:36.733 --> 01:40.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% independent cybersecurity experts that we contacted reached a similar conclusion. The 01:44.066 --> 01:49.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% likelihood that the hacking originated from the WhatsApp account of -- owned by Mohammed 01:51.033 --> 01:55.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% bin Salman is very high, and it is, in fact, the only hypothesis that could explain the 01:56.066 --> 01:58.133 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% hacking. 01:58.133 --> 02:02.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So our conclusion was reinforced through the very robust process that we undertook in order 02:04.000 --> 02:08.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to check the conclusion by the initial foreign expert. And that led us today to release this 02:10.533 --> 02:15.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% information to inform the public, but also to send a warning to ensure that the wakeup 02:18.066 --> 02:22.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% call is being made that we are working, confronting, facing a technology that we are not controlling. 02:26.066 --> 02:30.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: I want to get to that technology a little bit later, but I do need to read 02:30.966 --> 02:33.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you what the Saudi government has said. 02:33.666 --> 02:38.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% As you have seen, the Saudi official told us the kingdom rejected your conclusions and 02:38.600 --> 02:42.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that -- quote -- "Saudi Arabia doesn't conduct illicit activities." 02:42.433 --> 02:47.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And here's what the Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan had to say earlier: 02:49.500 --> 02:51.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% FAISAL BIN FARHAN AL SAUD, Saudi Foreign Minister: The idea that the conference would hack Jeff 02:51.733 --> 02:54.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Bezos' phone is absolutely silly. 02:54.566 --> 02:59.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And my understanding of the U.N. report, it's not actually a report. It's a statement based 02:59.133 --> 03:04.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on a report by a private company that has not been vetted by an independent agency, 03:06.100 --> 03:09.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and that, in its own conclusions, no hard evidence to substantiate the claims it's making. 03:11.633 --> 03:15.100 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% NICK SCHIFRIN: So do you have hard evidence to substantiate the claims? 03:15.100 --> 03:17.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% AGNES CALLAMARD: Absolutely. 03:17.133 --> 03:21.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% First of all, the FTI consultancy firm is composed of some of the best experts. It was 03:23.600 --> 03:28.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% vetted, because investigation into Mr. Bezos' phone is part of an ongoing FBI investigation. 03:31.233 --> 03:36.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Therefore, the work by the team and the team was vetted by the FBI. 03:36.033 --> 03:41.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I have already described to you the process that we followed to check the information 03:42.266 --> 03:44.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and the conclusion of the FTI. 03:44.766 --> 03:49.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I should add that, because the FTI review to have the phone was part of an investigation, 03:51.933 --> 03:56.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it was conducted under the most stringent conditions, including with regard to the chain 03:56.900 --> 03:59.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of evidence. 03:59.000 --> 04:02.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I have very -- I have no doubt that FTI and our independent expert looked at, considered 04:05.433 --> 04:10.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all the options before concluded that the hacking originated from the WhatsApp account 04:13.300 --> 04:17.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% owned by the crown prince. 04:17.666 --> 04:21.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% NICK SCHIFRIN: So let's talk about the context for this a little bit. 04:21.533 --> 04:26.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You write that this is part of a broader crackdown launched by the kingdom against its critics. 04:26.166 --> 04:30.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% We have certainly interviewed people in this country also who described some of that crackdown. 04:30.633 --> 04:35.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But the kingdom itself says Khashoggi's murder was done by rogue actors, that they're punishing 04:36.800 --> 04:39.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% those people, and that this won't happen again. 04:39.666 --> 04:41.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Do you acknowledge those Saudi steps? 04:41.533 --> 04:44.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% AGNES CALLAMARD: No, I don't. 04:44.733 --> 04:49.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% As I -- when I noted in the report I produced in June, this -- the king of the killing of 04:51.766 --> 04:55.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jamal Khashoggi was a violation of international law. First of all, it's not a domestic matter. 04:57.633 --> 05:02.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Second of all, a range of international legal standards were violated, none of which have 05:03.833 --> 05:07.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% been taken care of through the Saudi investigation. 05:07.366 --> 05:12.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Thirdly, and most importantly, the Saudi investigation completely failed to tackle the issue of the 05:14.766 --> 05:19.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% mastermind behind the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. They only focused on the hit men. And, indeed, 05:21.933 --> 05:26.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% even though they had originally charged some of the people that were higher up in the chain 05:28.366 --> 05:32.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of command, they ended up not finding them guilty of anything. 05:32.200 --> 05:37.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So, all in all, the investigation and the prosecution by the Saudi authorities failed 05:38.900 --> 05:42.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to meet international standards and certainly didn't deliver justice. 05:42.366 --> 05:47.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The killing of a journalist uncovers usually a web of corruption, a web of lies, and that 05:51.700 --> 05:54.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% can go all the way to the highest level of a government. 05:54.633 --> 05:59.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It is not unique to the case of Jamal Khashoggi, but it is a pattern that we found in many 06:01.633 --> 06:05.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% other killings. This web of corruption, of lies have not been untangled through the Saudi 06:08.566 --> 06:10.566 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% investigation. 06:10.566 --> 06:14.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And this is why I'm calling for -- you know, the allegation that we have released today, 06:16.600 --> 06:21.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one more element demonstrating the centrality of the state of Saudi Arabia, the centrality 06:23.400 --> 06:28.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of the crown prince of Saudi Arabia in the campaign -- and it is this campaign against 06:30.300 --> 06:35.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% dissident that ultimately resulted into the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. 06:35.100 --> 06:40.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: I only have about 45 seconds left, so I do want to get back to the technology 06:40.966 --> 06:42.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that you mentioned at the top. 06:42.066 --> 06:44.033 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% AGNES CALLAMARD: Yes. 06:44.033 --> 06:46.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: In your statement today, you call for a moratorium on the global sale and 06:46.733 --> 06:49.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% transfer of private surveillance technology. 06:49.566 --> 06:54.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But it seems to me that we have already crossed that Rubicon. Is there really anything we 06:54.066 --> 06:56.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% can do to try to rein in this kind of technology? 06:56.800 --> 07:01.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AGNES CALLAMARD: Well, we -- we don't have a choice. We have to rein it in, in the same 07:01.366 --> 07:06.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% way we have tried and sometimes succeeded in reining it -- some of the weapons that 07:07.466 --> 07:09.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were found to be unlawful and illegal. 07:09.933 --> 07:14.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Look, this technology is extremely difficult to trace, almost impossible to control. We 07:17.633 --> 07:22.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have here an example of the richest man on Earth, with unlimited resources, and yet it 07:24.566 --> 07:28.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% took him several months to realize his phone was hacked, and it took three months of work 07:30.166 --> 07:34.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% by top-notch expert to uncover the source of the hacking. 07:36.466 --> 07:40.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So this technology is a danger to all. It's a danger to national security and democratic 07:42.233 --> 07:47.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% processes in the United States. It targeted through Jeff Bezos' First Amendment, and, 07:48.866 --> 07:51.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% therefore, the American Constitution. 07:51.000 --> 07:55.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It targeted a central economic actor in the American system. Therefore, we have no choice. 07:58.766 --> 08:02.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% We need to control that technology. We must impose a moratorium. 08:02.833 --> 08:06.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NICK SCHIFRIN: Agnes Callamard, U.N. special rapporteur, thank you very much. 08:06.666 --> 08:07.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% AGNES CALLAMARD: Thank you very much.