1 00:00:01,766 --> 00:00:04,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: Amid the flurry of debate over the report by Robert Mueller and his team, 2 00:00:04,566 --> 00:00:10,466 the special counsel was clear on one main point: The Russian government interfered in 3 00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:15,700 the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion. 4 00:00:15,733 --> 00:00:21,000 But, yesterday, President Trump's son-in-law, White House adviser Jared Kushner, dismissed 5 00:00:21,033 --> 00:00:22,866 the seriousness of all that. 6 00:00:22,900 --> 00:00:24,800 JARED KUSHNER, Senior Presidential Adviser: And, quite frankly, the whole thing's just 7 00:00:24,833 --> 00:00:26,666 a big distraction for the country. 8 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:30,800 And you look at what Russia did, buying some Facebook ads to try to sow dissent and do 9 00:00:30,833 --> 00:00:35,733 it -- and it's a terrible thing -- but I think the investigations and all of the speculation 10 00:00:35,766 --> 00:00:39,500 that's happened for the last two years has had a much harsher impact on our democracy 11 00:00:39,533 --> 00:00:41,400 than a couple of Facebook ads. 12 00:00:41,433 --> 00:00:45,700 JUDY WOODRUFF: In addition, a New York Times article today reports that the Former Homeland 13 00:00:45,733 --> 00:00:52,033 Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen was discouraged by the president's chief of staff from discussing 14 00:00:52,066 --> 00:00:56,466 security for the 2020 election in front of Mr. Trump. 15 00:00:56,500 --> 00:00:59,566 The White House denied this after the story was published. 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,500 But what about 2020? 17 00:01:01,533 --> 00:01:06,366 What has been done, and what more needs to be done, to protect the integrity of our next 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,000 election? 19 00:01:08,033 --> 00:01:11,800 Juliette Kayyem previously served in the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. 20 00:01:11,833 --> 00:01:17,533 And Thomas Rid is a cybersecurity expert at Johns Hopkins University who has closely studied 21 00:01:17,566 --> 00:01:19,500 Russian operations. 22 00:01:19,533 --> 00:01:21,933 Welcome to the "NewsHour" to both of you. 23 00:01:21,966 --> 00:01:23,166 Welcome back. 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,733 Let me start with you, Juliette Kayyem. 25 00:01:25,766 --> 00:01:30,400 We hear Jared Kushner saying it was just a few Facebook ads, but we see a much more serious 26 00:01:30,433 --> 00:01:34,400 picture being portrayed, painted in the Mueller report. 27 00:01:34,433 --> 00:01:37,733 What do we know, in sum, about what the Russians did in 2016? 28 00:01:37,766 --> 00:01:40,466 JULIETTE KAYYEM, Former Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary: So, we know 29 00:01:40,500 --> 00:01:46,100 now that it started earlier than we previously thought, as early as 2014, and that it was 30 00:01:46,133 --> 00:01:50,633 more systemic -- or systematic and more targeted than we had once known. 31 00:01:50,666 --> 00:01:54,700 What I mean it was systematic is that there is a theory that Russia just threw a bunch 32 00:01:54,733 --> 00:01:56,900 of things at the wall and something stuck. 33 00:01:56,933 --> 00:02:01,400 And what we now know is that, both through the Republican primary and then through the 34 00:02:01,433 --> 00:02:06,533 general, that the Russians had a sustained and concerted effort to utilize social media, 35 00:02:06,566 --> 00:02:12,733 the advertisements, and other networks to perpetuate essentially lies about other candidates 36 00:02:12,766 --> 00:02:16,833 or to support, by the end, one particular candidate, Donald Trump. 37 00:02:16,866 --> 00:02:18,833 This is outside the hacking issue. 38 00:02:18,866 --> 00:02:23,766 On the hacking issue, the story is well-known, and it's documented in volume one, that those 39 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:30,366 -- the hacking that was initiated and started by Russia, desired by Russia through WikiLeaks, 40 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:36,400 was then sort of weaponized by the U.S. media in terms of it repeating what was stolen, 41 00:02:36,433 --> 00:02:40,700 and then became a storyline that by the end Hillary Clinton had to defend. 42 00:02:40,733 --> 00:02:45,900 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Thomas Rid, how much of this was underlined or in fact became new 43 00:02:45,933 --> 00:02:47,800 information in the Mueller report? 44 00:02:47,833 --> 00:02:51,066 THOMAS RID, Johns Hopkins School for Advanced International Studies: The Mueller report 45 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:56,866 in fact added very little genuinely new details to the story of Russian interference that 46 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:58,766 wasn't already publicly known. 47 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:04,000 In fact, I'm a little disappointed that we didn't learn more about the social media data 48 00:03:04,033 --> 00:03:06,266 specifically that the Mueller report cites. 49 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:09,733 They seem to rely on publicly available data. 50 00:03:09,766 --> 00:03:13,800 But there's an important thing that I think the Mueller report is falling short on. 51 00:03:13,833 --> 00:03:19,333 The Mueller report named the IRA, the Internet Research Agency, the trolling and the social 52 00:03:19,366 --> 00:03:24,366 media operation, first and also that's where the first indictment was published. 53 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,000 But the leaking and the hacking -- or, rather, the hacking and then the leaking of Democratic 54 00:03:30,033 --> 00:03:36,533 files, especially John Podesta's inbox, was far more significant than the social media 55 00:03:36,566 --> 00:03:38,000 operation. 56 00:03:38,033 --> 00:03:40,966 So we risk overstating the effect of the social media campaign. 57 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,466 JUDY WOODRUFF: But you're saying we need to pay attention to all of it. 58 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:49,466 Juliette Kayyem, what then do we know about what the Russians are up to for 2020? 59 00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:54,966 JULIETTE KAYYEM: Well, you know, I believe White Houses matter, and I believe that a 60 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,800 White House that is committed to stopping a foreign campaign against our democracy would 61 00:03:59,833 --> 00:04:01,733 be relevant. 62 00:04:01,766 --> 00:04:05,366 And so what we're seeing, of course, is the denials, the Giuliani statement this weekend 63 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,866 that, you know, it's OK to get this information from the Russians. 64 00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:11,033 So I don't want to put that aside, because I do think that matters. 65 00:04:11,066 --> 00:04:16,533 But, on the tactical level, you do see a lot of effort being made on the state and local 66 00:04:16,566 --> 00:04:21,833 level through the Department of Homeland Security to protect elections and the election process, 67 00:04:21,866 --> 00:04:25,833 and then, of course, the kind of training and efforts that are being done through campaigns, 68 00:04:25,866 --> 00:04:30,200 the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, to protect their networks. 69 00:04:30,233 --> 00:04:33,933 Some of that is defense, you know, layered security encryption. 70 00:04:33,966 --> 00:04:38,100 But some of it also has to be offense, which is in this case naming and shaming it. 71 00:04:38,133 --> 00:04:43,400 We have to be quite public about when someone's stuff has been taken, say, e-mails. 72 00:04:43,433 --> 00:04:47,033 And then the final thing, which I mentioned before, the media has to start having some 73 00:04:47,066 --> 00:04:54,000 standards by which they will determine whether things stolen, not leaked, things stolen, 74 00:04:54,033 --> 00:04:58,866 will be utilized by them to amplify the sort of criminal behavior by a foreign entity. 75 00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:02,500 JUDY WOODRUFF: That's a message we need to give very serious consideration to. 76 00:05:02,533 --> 00:05:04,966 Thomas Rid, what about for 2020? 77 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,400 What do you see coming in 2020 that this country has to be on guard against? 78 00:05:10,433 --> 00:05:17,966 THOMAS RID: Important, I would add to what was just said that we learned in 2016 that 79 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,166 some of the leaks were messed with. 80 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:27,133 The very first leak, for example, contained a document that was the Russian front account 81 00:05:27,166 --> 00:05:31,800 said, classified, came from Hillary Clinton's server and the State Department. 82 00:05:31,833 --> 00:05:37,133 All three statements were lies, were just not backed up by the evidence. 83 00:05:37,166 --> 00:05:41,800 So we have to expect -- and that's the historical norm -- we have to expect forgeries. 84 00:05:41,833 --> 00:05:44,433 And don't trust the leaks at face value. 85 00:05:44,466 --> 00:05:46,100 Very important message for journalists. 86 00:05:46,133 --> 00:05:50,600 But I would highlight a really serious risk here. 87 00:05:50,633 --> 00:05:54,400 The biggest risk is a combination of two things. 88 00:05:54,433 --> 00:05:59,966 It's a combination of the president of the United States, if he is defeated, calling 89 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:06,133 the legitimacy of the vote into question, which he has announced multiple times already 90 00:06:06,166 --> 00:06:12,066 that he would be doing so, and, in combination, a Russian operation that would provide some 91 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:17,866 sort of credible evidence to this claim that the system is rigged in the heat of the moment 92 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:22,366 on election night and the following days to sow doubt and create uncertainty in a very 93 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,933 fragile moment, and thus endanger a peaceful transition of power. 94 00:06:26,966 --> 00:06:29,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: Juliette Kayyem, just quickly, I see you nodding. 95 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:33,200 What gives you -- what makes you believe that that's a concern? 96 00:06:33,233 --> 00:06:36,566 JULIETTE KAYYEM: Because the Russians know the playbook. 97 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:42,100 They know that the White House is not essentially stopping or forcefully stopping the playbook. 98 00:06:42,133 --> 00:06:44,000 And they will change. 99 00:06:44,033 --> 00:06:47,166 And so one of my biggest concerns coming from the -- you know, both the cyber and physical 100 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:53,566 security space is that the Russians will utilize cyberattacks to have a physical impact on 101 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:54,900 the voting process. 102 00:06:54,933 --> 00:06:57,966 So, in other words, how do you win Michigan? 103 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:03,466 You depress 20,000 African-American votes in Detroit, so, whether they, you know, sort 104 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:09,766 of force traffic issues or signals go out, or there's a blackout. 105 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,133 And so there's what we call the Internet of things, that you would have a cyberattack 106 00:07:13,166 --> 00:07:15,466 that would impact physical processes. 107 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:16,833 For me, that's my worry. 108 00:07:16,866 --> 00:07:18,666 The Russians are sophisticated enough to do that. 109 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:23,600 And they will change and modify, in light of what we now know because of the Mueller 110 00:07:23,633 --> 00:07:25,133 report. 111 00:07:25,166 --> 00:07:28,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: Thomas Rid, that's alarming to even think about that. 112 00:07:28,666 --> 00:07:33,233 How can the U.S. be on guard against some or all of this? 113 00:07:33,266 --> 00:07:40,300 THOMAS RID: One important aspect of being on guard is to really look at the available 114 00:07:40,333 --> 00:07:45,333 evidence of what is happening in a very, very sober and cool-headed way, which, is of course, 115 00:07:45,366 --> 00:07:49,166 very difficult because this conversation is so highly politicized. 116 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,533 But by overstating the threat -- and we are overstating the full spectrum of Russian influence 117 00:07:54,566 --> 00:08:01,033 operations in 2016 currently -- by exaggerating the threats, we are effectively making that 118 00:08:01,066 --> 00:08:04,100 operation more successful than it actually was. 119 00:08:04,133 --> 00:08:08,866 And we risk, by overstating disinformation, we risk engaging in disinformation. 120 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:14,500 Now, of course, we still have to be on guard and protect systems, and I support everything 121 00:08:14,533 --> 00:08:16,166 that we heard here. 122 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:21,600 But I just think it's really important to be also aware of this risk of overstating 123 00:08:21,633 --> 00:08:23,366 the problem at the same time. 124 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: Being clear-eyed and direct about everything we hear and what we say. 125 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:31,433 Thomas Rid, Juliette Kayyem, we thank you both. 126 00:08:31,466 --> 00:08:32,666 We're going to continue to follow this. 127 00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:33,100 JULIETTE KAYYEM: Thank you.