WEBVTT 00:01.766 --> 00:04.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Amid the flurry of debate over the report by Robert Mueller and his team, 00:04.566 --> 00:10.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the special counsel was clear on one main point: The Russian government interfered in 00:10.500 --> 00:15.700 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion. 00:15.733 --> 00:21.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% But, yesterday, President Trump's son-in-law, White House adviser Jared Kushner, dismissed 00:21.033 --> 00:22.866 align:left position:15% line:77% size:75% the seriousness of all that. 00:22.900 --> 00:24.800 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% JARED KUSHNER, Senior Presidential Adviser: And, quite frankly, the whole thing's just 00:24.833 --> 00:26.666 align:left position:27.5% line:77% size:62.5% a big distraction for the country. 00:26.700 --> 00:30.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And you look at what Russia did, buying some Facebook ads to try to sow dissent and do 00:30.833 --> 00:35.733 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% it -- and it's a terrible thing -- but I think the investigations and all of the speculation 00:35.766 --> 00:39.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that's happened for the last two years has had a much harsher impact on our democracy 00:39.533 --> 00:41.400 align:left position:12.5% line:77% size:77.5% than a couple of Facebook ads. 00:41.433 --> 00:45.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% JUDY WOODRUFF: In addition, a New York Times article today reports that the Former Homeland 00:45.733 --> 00:52.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen was discouraged by the president's chief of staff from discussing 00:52.066 --> 00:56.466 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% security for the 2020 election in front of Mr. Trump. 00:56.500 --> 00:59.566 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% The White House denied this after the story was published. 00:59.600 --> 01:01.500 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% But what about 2020? 01:01.533 --> 01:06.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% What has been done, and what more needs to be done, to protect the integrity of our next 01:06.400 --> 01:08.000 align:left position:37.5% line:77% size:52.5% election? 01:08.033 --> 01:11.800 align:left position:17.5% line:77% size:72.5% Juliette Kayyem previously served in the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. 01:11.833 --> 01:17.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And Thomas Rid is a cybersecurity expert at Johns Hopkins University who has closely studied 01:17.566 --> 01:19.500 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% Russian operations. 01:19.533 --> 01:21.933 align:left position:17.5% line:77% size:72.5% Welcome to the "NewsHour" to both of you. 01:21.966 --> 01:23.166 align:left position:32.5% line:77% size:57.5% Welcome back. 01:23.200 --> 01:25.733 align:left position:35% line:77% size:55% Let me start with you, Juliette Kayyem. 01:25.766 --> 01:30.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% We hear Jared Kushner saying it was just a few Facebook ads, but we see a much more serious 01:30.433 --> 01:34.400 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% picture being portrayed, painted in the Mueller report. 01:34.433 --> 01:37.733 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% What do we know, in sum, about what the Russians did in 2016? 01:37.766 --> 01:40.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JULIETTE KAYYEM, Former Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary: So, we know 01:40.500 --> 01:46.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% now that it started earlier than we previously thought, as early as 2014, and that it was 01:46.133 --> 01:50.633 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% more systemic -- or systematic and more targeted than we had once known. 01:50.666 --> 01:54.700 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% What I mean it was systematic is that there is a theory that Russia just threw a bunch 01:54.733 --> 01:56.900 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% of things at the wall and something stuck. 01:56.933 --> 02:01.400 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% And what we now know is that, both through the Republican primary and then through the 02:01.433 --> 02:06.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% general, that the Russians had a sustained and concerted effort to utilize social media, 02:06.566 --> 02:12.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the advertisements, and other networks to perpetuate essentially lies about other candidates 02:12.766 --> 02:16.833 align:left position:27.5% line:77% size:62.5% or to support, by the end, one particular candidate, Donald Trump. 02:16.866 --> 02:18.833 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% This is outside the hacking issue. 02:18.866 --> 02:23.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% On the hacking issue, the story is well-known, and it's documented in volume one, that those 02:23.800 --> 02:30.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% -- the hacking that was initiated and started by Russia, desired by Russia through WikiLeaks, 02:30.400 --> 02:36.400 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% was then sort of weaponized by the U.S. media in terms of it repeating what was stolen, 02:36.433 --> 02:40.700 align:left position:27.5% line:77% size:62.5% and then became a storyline that by the end Hillary Clinton had to defend. 02:40.733 --> 02:45.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Thomas Rid, how much of this was underlined or in fact became new 02:45.933 --> 02:47.800 align:left position:32.5% line:77% size:57.5% information in the Mueller report? 02:47.833 --> 02:51.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% THOMAS RID, Johns Hopkins School for Advanced International Studies: The Mueller report 02:51.100 --> 02:56.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% in fact added very little genuinely new details to the story of Russian interference that 02:56.900 --> 02:58.766 align:left position:12.5% line:77% size:77.5% wasn't already publicly known. 02:58.800 --> 03:04.000 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% In fact, I'm a little disappointed that we didn't learn more about the social media data 03:04.033 --> 03:06.266 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% specifically that the Mueller report cites. 03:06.300 --> 03:09.733 align:left position:27.5% line:77% size:62.5% They seem to rely on publicly available data. 03:09.766 --> 03:13.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But there's an important thing that I think the Mueller report is falling short on. 03:13.833 --> 03:19.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The Mueller report named the IRA, the Internet Research Agency, the trolling and the social 03:19.366 --> 03:24.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% media operation, first and also that's where the first indictment was published. 03:24.400 --> 03:30.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% But the leaking and the hacking -- or, rather, the hacking and then the leaking of Democratic 03:30.033 --> 03:36.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% files, especially John Podesta's inbox, was far more significant than the social media 03:36.566 --> 03:38.000 align:left position:37.5% line:77% size:52.5% operation. 03:38.033 --> 03:40.966 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% So we risk overstating the effect of the social media campaign. 03:41.000 --> 03:45.466 align:left position:17.5% line:77% size:72.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: But you're saying we need to pay attention to all of it. 03:45.500 --> 03:49.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% Juliette Kayyem, what then do we know about what the Russians are up to for 2020? 03:49.500 --> 03:54.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% JULIETTE KAYYEM: Well, you know, I believe White Houses matter, and I believe that a 03:55.000 --> 03:59.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% White House that is committed to stopping a foreign campaign against our democracy would 03:59.833 --> 04:01.733 align:left position:35% line:77% size:55% be relevant. 04:01.766 --> 04:05.366 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And so what we're seeing, of course, is the denials, the Giuliani statement this weekend 04:05.400 --> 04:07.866 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% that, you know, it's OK to get this information from the Russians. 04:07.900 --> 04:11.033 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% So I don't want to put that aside, because I do think that matters. 04:11.066 --> 04:16.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75% But, on the tactical level, you do see a lot of effort being made on the state and local 04:16.566 --> 04:21.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% level through the Department of Homeland Security to protect elections and the election process, 04:21.866 --> 04:25.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% and then, of course, the kind of training and efforts that are being done through campaigns, 04:25.866 --> 04:30.200 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, to protect their networks. 04:30.233 --> 04:33.933 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% Some of that is defense, you know, layered security encryption. 04:33.966 --> 04:38.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% But some of it also has to be offense, which is in this case naming and shaming it. 04:38.133 --> 04:43.400 align:left position:32.5% line:65% size:57.5% We have to be quite public about when someone's stuff has been taken, say, e-mails. 04:43.433 --> 04:47.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% And then the final thing, which I mentioned before, the media has to start having some 04:47.066 --> 04:54.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% standards by which they will determine whether things stolen, not leaked, things stolen, 04:54.033 --> 04:58.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% will be utilized by them to amplify the sort of criminal behavior by a foreign entity. 04:58.900 --> 05:02.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: That's a message we need to give very serious consideration to. 05:02.533 --> 05:04.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Thomas Rid, what about for 2020? 05:05.000 --> 05:10.400 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% What do you see coming in 2020 that this country has to be on guard against? 05:10.433 --> 05:17.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% THOMAS RID: Important, I would add to what was just said that we learned in 2016 that 05:18.000 --> 05:21.166 align:left position:35% line:77% size:55% some of the leaks were messed with. 05:21.200 --> 05:27.133 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% The very first leak, for example, contained a document that was the Russian front account 05:27.166 --> 05:31.800 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% said, classified, came from Hillary Clinton's server and the State Department. 05:31.833 --> 05:37.133 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% All three statements were lies, were just not backed up by the evidence. 05:37.166 --> 05:41.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% So we have to expect -- and that's the historical norm -- we have to expect forgeries. 05:41.833 --> 05:44.433 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% And don't trust the leaks at face value. 05:44.466 --> 05:46.100 align:left position:32.5% line:77% size:57.5% Very important message for journalists. 05:46.133 --> 05:50.600 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% But I would highlight a really serious risk here. 05:50.633 --> 05:54.400 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% The biggest risk is a combination of two things. 05:54.433 --> 05:59.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% It's a combination of the president of the United States, if he is defeated, calling 06:00.000 --> 06:06.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% the legitimacy of the vote into question, which he has announced multiple times already 06:06.166 --> 06:12.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% that he would be doing so, and, in combination, a Russian operation that would provide some 06:12.100 --> 06:17.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5% sort of credible evidence to this claim that the system is rigged in the heat of the moment 06:17.900 --> 06:22.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% on election night and the following days to sow doubt and create uncertainty in a very 06:22.400 --> 06:26.933 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% fragile moment, and thus endanger a peaceful transition of power. 06:26.966 --> 06:29.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Juliette Kayyem, just quickly, I see you nodding. 06:29.700 --> 06:33.200 align:left position:27.5% line:77% size:62.5% What gives you -- what makes you believe that that's a concern? 06:33.233 --> 06:36.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JULIETTE KAYYEM: Because the Russians know the playbook. 06:36.600 --> 06:42.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% They know that the White House is not essentially stopping or forcefully stopping the playbook. 06:42.133 --> 06:44.000 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% And they will change. 06:44.033 --> 06:47.166 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5% And so one of my biggest concerns coming from the -- you know, both the cyber and physical 06:47.200 --> 06:53.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% security space is that the Russians will utilize cyberattacks to have a physical impact on 06:53.600 --> 06:54.900 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% the voting process. 06:54.933 --> 06:57.966 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% So, in other words, how do you win Michigan? 06:58.000 --> 07:03.466 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% You depress 20,000 African-American votes in Detroit, so, whether they, you know, sort 07:03.500 --> 07:09.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% of force traffic issues or signals go out, or there's a blackout. 07:09.800 --> 07:13.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And so there's what we call the Internet of things, that you would have a cyberattack 07:13.166 --> 07:15.466 align:left position:37.5% line:77% size:52.5% that would impact physical processes. 07:15.500 --> 07:16.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% For me, that's my worry. 07:16.866 --> 07:18.666 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% The Russians are sophisticated enough to do that. 07:18.700 --> 07:23.600 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% And they will change and modify, in light of what we now know because of the Mueller 07:23.633 --> 07:25.133 align:left position:40% line:77% size:50% report. 07:25.166 --> 07:28.633 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: Thomas Rid, that's alarming to even think about that. 07:28.666 --> 07:33.233 align:left position:30% line:77% size:60% How can the U.S. be on guard against some or all of this? 07:33.266 --> 07:40.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% THOMAS RID: One important aspect of being on guard is to really look at the available 07:40.333 --> 07:45.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% evidence of what is happening in a very, very sober and cool-headed way, which, is of course, 07:45.366 --> 07:49.166 align:left position:22.5% line:77% size:67.5% very difficult because this conversation is so highly politicized. 07:49.200 --> 07:54.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5% But by overstating the threat -- and we are overstating the full spectrum of Russian influence 07:54.566 --> 08:01.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5% operations in 2016 currently -- by exaggerating the threats, we are effectively making that 08:01.066 --> 08:04.100 align:left position:17.5% line:77% size:72.5% operation more successful than it actually was. 08:04.133 --> 08:08.866 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55% And we risk, by overstating disinformation, we risk engaging in disinformation. 08:08.900 --> 08:14.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Now, of course, we still have to be on guard and protect systems, and I support everything 08:14.533 --> 08:16.166 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% that we heard here. 08:16.200 --> 08:21.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60% But I just think it's really important to be also aware of this risk of overstating 08:21.633 --> 08:23.366 align:left position:12.5% line:77% size:77.5% the problem at the same time. 08:23.400 --> 08:28.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65% JUDY WOODRUFF: Being clear-eyed and direct about everything we hear and what we say. 08:28.700 --> 08:31.433 align:left position:25% line:77% size:65% Thomas Rid, Juliette Kayyem, we thank you both. 08:31.466 --> 08:32.666 align:left position:32.5% line:77% size:57.5% We're going to continue to follow this. 08:32.700 --> 08:33.100 align:left position:15% line:77% size:75% JULIETTE KAYYEM: Thank you.