1 00:00:01,233 --> 00:00:03,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: Now let's turn to politics Monday. 2 00:00:03,733 --> 00:00:07,333 I'm with our regular duo, Amy Walter of The Cook Political Report and host of public radio's 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,200 "Politics With Amy Walter." 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,866 And Tamara Keith from NPR, she also co-hosts the "NPR Politics Podcast. 5 00:00:16,033 --> 00:00:17,033 " 6 00:00:17,033 --> 00:00:18,033 Hello to both of you. 7 00:00:18,033 --> 00:00:19,566 It is Politics Monday. 8 00:00:19,566 --> 00:00:21,933 So let's talk about this Iowa poll we were just discussing. 9 00:00:21,933 --> 00:00:24,033 Amy, what do you make of it? 10 00:00:24,033 --> 00:00:25,866 AMY WALTER, The Cook Political Report: Well, Elizabeth Warren has had a great summer, and 11 00:00:25,866 --> 00:00:27,900 it shows. 12 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:30,433 When you talk to folks who are in and around Iowa, that's what you are hearing. 13 00:00:30,433 --> 00:00:35,433 At the Iowa State Fair this summer, all the buzz was about Elizabeth Warren, and now it's 14 00:00:36,333 --> 00:00:38,466 borne itself out in this poll. 15 00:00:38,466 --> 00:00:42,766 And I do think it's important, yes, as Ann Selzer points out, that these things are fluid. 16 00:00:42,766 --> 00:00:45,366 Everything is fluid in Iowa. 17 00:00:45,366 --> 00:00:49,366 In fact, I remember going back to other Democratic primaries where, at this point, after a very 18 00:00:51,366 --> 00:00:54,733 good summer, it looked like Howard Dean not only was going to win Iowa, but was going 19 00:00:54,733 --> 00:00:56,866 to be the nominee. 20 00:00:56,866 --> 00:01:01,166 So was Hillary Clinton in 2008, who was doing quite well in the September Des Moines Register 21 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,600 poll. 22 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,000 But Iowa, it tends to be that, around Thanksgiving time, Iowa voters, even though they're paying 23 00:01:09,366 --> 00:01:11,466 a whole lot of attention, really get it into another gear. 24 00:01:11,466 --> 00:01:16,133 What's different, though, this year, I feel like that Iowa has taken just on a whole new 25 00:01:16,133 --> 00:01:17,133 dimension. 26 00:01:17,133 --> 00:01:18,600 It's always important. 27 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,433 It's always -- it sets the pace for the campaign. 28 00:01:21,433 --> 00:01:25,833 But this year, with the issue of electability so important in the minds of the voters, the 29 00:01:25,833 --> 00:01:29,966 winner then gets to make the case that they are a winner. 30 00:01:29,966 --> 00:01:32,466 Now, you can't say, just because you win a primary, that means you are going to beat 31 00:01:32,466 --> 00:01:34,766 Donald Trump, but folks are looking for a winner. 32 00:01:34,766 --> 00:01:39,733 And I think they're going to take cues from Iowa in a way maybe even more than we have 33 00:01:39,733 --> 00:01:41,700 seen before. 34 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:43,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: And so Elizabeth Warren gets a little bit of a bump out of this. 35 00:01:43,633 --> 00:01:45,633 TAMARA KEITH, National Public Radio: Yes. 36 00:01:45,633 --> 00:01:48,966 And if you have been out talking to voters, you have been hearing she is, at the moment, 37 00:01:48,966 --> 00:01:51,000 the excitement candidate. 38 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,066 And part of the way her campaign has been showing that is, they don't want to talk about 39 00:01:54,066 --> 00:01:55,800 polls. 40 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,800 They don't want to talk about horse race. 41 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,066 But then they hold a really big rally in New York. 42 00:02:02,066 --> 00:02:06,733 And that is sort of another way that they're making an electability argument, which is 43 00:02:06,733 --> 00:02:11,733 to say, look, Elizabeth Warren can get a really big crowd in a very liberal urban place. 44 00:02:13,433 --> 00:02:15,633 You know who else did that in 2016? 45 00:02:15,633 --> 00:02:17,566 Bernie Sanders. 46 00:02:17,566 --> 00:02:21,033 I actually went to a rally in the very same park that Bernie Sanders held that looked 47 00:02:21,033 --> 00:02:23,066 a whole lot like that rally. 48 00:02:23,066 --> 00:02:28,033 And Elizabeth Warren is sort of capturing that mood at this time in the campaign, in 49 00:02:29,166 --> 00:02:30,700 a way that Bernie Sanders did last time. 50 00:02:30,700 --> 00:02:32,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: Huge crowds, Bernie Sanders was getting. 51 00:02:32,933 --> 00:02:37,933 At the same time, we know that there are a number of candidates who are struggling. 52 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:41,933 Those are the ones who are in the single digits in Iowa and in other polls, Amy. 53 00:02:41,933 --> 00:02:46,733 And, in fact, one of them, Cory Booker, has said in the last few days -- he said it openly: 54 00:02:46,733 --> 00:02:51,733 If I don't raise $1.8 million in the next few days, I can't stay in this race, because 55 00:02:53,066 --> 00:02:54,766 of the pressure to do better. 56 00:02:54,766 --> 00:02:56,800 AMY WALTER: The pressure to do better. 57 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,166 Plus, no campaigns die because the member who's running decides or the candidate decides, 58 00:03:02,566 --> 00:03:03,900 you know what, I guess I didn't want to be president. 59 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:05,066 (LAUGHTER) 60 00:03:05,066 --> 00:03:07,133 AMY WALTER: They always run out of money. 61 00:03:07,133 --> 00:03:11,800 And it's hard to sustain money when you're not either moving in the polls or making any 62 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,033 change, it looks like, in the other dynamic. 63 00:03:15,033 --> 00:03:16,800 He's been on the stage in all the debates. 64 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,600 I think, personally, he's done a very good job. 65 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,966 He's been very effective as a debater. 66 00:03:21,966 --> 00:03:24,200 But it hasn't seemed to really translate. 67 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:29,200 And I think, for so many voters now, they like, basically, the known brands, and they're 68 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,533 choosing between the known brands of Biden, Warren and Sanders. 69 00:03:32,533 --> 00:03:37,233 And they haven't been interested as much in looking around for those people who they don't 70 00:03:37,233 --> 00:03:38,466 know so well. 71 00:03:38,466 --> 00:03:39,266 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Tam -- go ahead, Tam. 72 00:03:39,266 --> 00:03:41,266 TAMARA KEITH: Yes. 73 00:03:41,266 --> 00:03:43,466 One of the challenges that Cory Booker has been facing and that several of the candidates 74 00:03:43,466 --> 00:03:47,033 have faced is the cost of acquisition of donors. 75 00:03:47,033 --> 00:03:49,133 AMY WALTER: Right. 76 00:03:49,133 --> 00:03:53,033 TAMARA KEITH: And that is a very technical thing that I'm saying, but it's a real issue. 77 00:03:55,033 --> 00:03:57,266 They are -- they are having to spend a lot of money on Facebook ads and other ways of 78 00:03:57,266 --> 00:03:59,966 going out and getting more individual donors. 79 00:03:59,966 --> 00:04:04,933 And that is all related to the Democratic Party's qualifications for the debates. 80 00:04:06,833 --> 00:04:10,733 It's really creating a dynamic that hasn't existed in past primaries. 81 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,300 AMY WALTER: Yes, I have heard a lot of grumbling, the same grumbling you have, from campaigns 82 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:19,233 saying, boy, if we didn't have to spend all that money trying to get these donor -- online 83 00:04:19,233 --> 00:04:21,533 donors, we'd have enough money to be in this race. 84 00:04:21,533 --> 00:04:24,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: You're seeing that in a number of places. 85 00:04:24,066 --> 00:04:29,066 In fact, there's a story in Politico today quoting the former Iowa State Democratic Party 86 00:04:31,133 --> 00:04:35,233 chair, saying, "It's a national primary, based on the worst foundation, name I.D. and money." 87 00:04:36,666 --> 00:04:38,600 He said, "We're supposed to be the party of ideas." 88 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,200 He's criticizing what the party is doing in squeezing these candidates. 89 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,233 AMY WALTER: Right, in some ways. 90 00:04:44,233 --> 00:04:46,266 But I would argue part of the reason that Elizabeth Warren has been so successful is 91 00:04:46,266 --> 00:04:50,366 because she has been the candidate of ideas, because she has been the one candidate to 92 00:04:50,366 --> 00:04:54,533 really break through, not just with, "I have a plan," but she has a narrative. 93 00:04:54,533 --> 00:04:59,533 She has a narrative and a case that she's making for not just her, but for her entire 94 00:05:01,633 --> 00:05:04,433 presidency, that people are really attaching to. 95 00:05:04,433 --> 00:05:06,533 She's made it personal. 96 00:05:06,533 --> 00:05:10,433 She's -- she's very much connecting with people beyond just -- it's not just a, like, shiny 97 00:05:11,366 --> 00:05:13,433 object kind of attachment. 98 00:05:13,433 --> 00:05:17,700 JUDY WOODRUFF: But we could be heading for debates in the next -- in the coming months 99 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:20,233 with many fewer candidates on the stage. 100 00:05:20,233 --> 00:05:21,233 AMY WALTER: Right. 101 00:05:21,233 --> 00:05:23,266 TAMARA KEITH: Right. 102 00:05:23,266 --> 00:05:25,600 And when you talk to voters, they are overwhelmed by the number of candidates. 103 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,266 And, certainly, these debates have been overwhelming, in that when there are 10 people on stage, 104 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,833 even -- like, we try to talk about it on our podcast afterwards. 105 00:05:33,833 --> 00:05:37,766 And you can't even fit all of the candidates into the podcast afterwards. 106 00:05:37,766 --> 00:05:40,766 It's very difficult to manage. 107 00:05:40,766 --> 00:05:43,100 And so that's part of what the DNC is doing. 108 00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:48,033 But then you have candidates who say, but, wait, this is my only shot to get in front 109 00:05:48,033 --> 00:05:50,033 of people. 110 00:05:50,033 --> 00:05:52,466 JUDY WOODRUFF: Completely different subject, all the news of the last few days about the 111 00:05:52,466 --> 00:05:57,233 whistle-blower in the intelligence community talking about the president having a conversation 112 00:05:57,233 --> 00:06:01,666 with the president of Ukraine, Amy, in which there may have been a promise. 113 00:06:01,666 --> 00:06:03,733 We don't know. 114 00:06:03,733 --> 00:06:07,366 It's believed to have been about pressuring the president of Ukraine to investigate Joe 115 00:06:07,366 --> 00:06:08,366 Biden. 116 00:06:08,366 --> 00:06:10,400 AMY WALTER: Right. 117 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,166 JUDY WOODRUFF: So the question I have for the two of you is, is this leading some of 118 00:06:13,166 --> 00:06:18,166 those Democrats who've been resistant to pushing to going for a full-blown impeachment? 119 00:06:19,033 --> 00:06:21,066 Is it changing some minds? 120 00:06:21,066 --> 00:06:24,100 AMY WALTER: I think that's the question that Tam and I were both searching around for today, 121 00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:28,133 making calls and trying to figure out if it's really changed the dynamic. 122 00:06:28,133 --> 00:06:31,900 My sense from talking to some folks is, look, this is certainly a new wrinkle, because it's 123 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:33,933 no longer about Mueller. 124 00:06:33,933 --> 00:06:36,466 I think the sense was, the Mueller report has sort of played its way out. 125 00:06:36,466 --> 00:06:40,366 And, yes, they could continue to have more hearings about some of the characters there. 126 00:06:40,366 --> 00:06:43,833 But this is an entirely different situation. 127 00:06:43,833 --> 00:06:45,300 There's still a worry. 128 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:46,966 As you pointed out, we don't have the facts yet. 129 00:06:46,966 --> 00:06:49,766 And so what they were telling me is, we need to see that transcript. 130 00:06:49,766 --> 00:06:53,033 We need to understand what was actually said before we come out. 131 00:06:53,033 --> 00:06:55,633 But this is -- this is definitely opening new territory. 132 00:06:55,633 --> 00:07:00,200 JUDY WOODRUFF: There was a member of Congress, Tam, I guess we have just learned this afternoon, 133 00:07:02,666 --> 00:07:05,633 freshman Democrat from Minnesota, Dean Phillips, who had been in the camp of no on impeachment 134 00:07:07,166 --> 00:07:09,966 proceedings, is now moving in that direction because of all this. 135 00:07:09,966 --> 00:07:13,700 TAMARA KEITH: And there has been a slow movement of Democrats. 136 00:07:13,700 --> 00:07:15,300 The numbers do continue growing. 137 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:19,400 And this is another thing that is weighing on some of them. 138 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,400 Nancy Pelosi, yesterday -- I believe it was yesterday -- used stronger language than she's 139 00:07:26,433 --> 00:07:29,433 used before in referring to the way the administration is sort of stonewalling investigations. 140 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:36,166 I think we will know more by the end of this week whether the whistle-blower complaint 141 00:07:36,166 --> 00:07:40,633 will be seen by the relevant congressional committees or whether this is going to be 142 00:07:40,633 --> 00:07:44,766 that same dynamic that's played out over any number of issues that Democrats in Congress 143 00:07:44,766 --> 00:07:46,266 have been trying to investigate. 144 00:07:46,266 --> 00:07:49,233 And, in some ways, they're just -- they're just stuck. 145 00:07:49,233 --> 00:07:51,233 AMY WALTER: Yes. 146 00:07:51,233 --> 00:07:54,900 And if Republicans don't move, then the dynamics remain the same, too, right? 147 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:59,400 If there's no movement either from Republicans in the House or a sense that Republicans in 148 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,166 the Senate want to push this forward, then we're kind of back at square one, to your 149 00:08:03,166 --> 00:08:04,866 point. 150 00:08:04,866 --> 00:08:07,766 TAMARA KEITH: And one tweet from Mitt Romney, the senator from Utah... 151 00:08:07,766 --> 00:08:09,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: Yes. 152 00:08:09,833 --> 00:08:12,433 TAMARA KEITH: ... sort of wringing his hands is not really a big movement there. 153 00:08:12,433 --> 00:08:13,600 AMY WALTER: Yes. 154 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,200 JUDY WOODRUFF: All right, we heard it here. 155 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,633 (LAUGHTER) 156 00:08:16,633 --> 00:08:17,566 JUDY WOODRUFF: Tamara Keith, Amy Walter, thank you. 157 00:08:17,566 --> 00:08:18,500 AMY WALTER: You're welcome. 158 00:08:18,500 --> 00:08:18,633 TAMARA KEITH: You're welcome.