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>> Sreenivasan: FOR MORE ON THE

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RISE IN COVID CASES, INCLUDING

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WHAT THE LATEST VARIANT COULD

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MEAN FOR CHILDREN NOT YET

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ELIGIBLE FOR VACCINES, I SPOKE

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WITH PROPUBLICA REPORTER

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CAROLINE CHEN.

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>> I THINK THAT THIS IS A

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PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT TIME, I

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CAN IMAGINE, FOR A LOT OF

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PARENTS, WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT,

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YOU KNOW, HOW CAN I PROTECT MY

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KID?

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WE WANT THEM TO GO BACK TO

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SCHOOL.

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SCHOOLS MAY HAVE ALREADY BEEN

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OPENED AND BACK IN SESSION.

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SO I THINK THE THING THAT WE

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KNOW FOR SURE ABOUT THE DELTA

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VARIANT IS THAT IT IS MORE

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CONTAGIOUS, AT LEAST, THAN THE

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WILD TYPE VARIANT.

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WHAT'S MUCH HARDER FOR US TO

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ASSESS CLEARLY WHEN IT COMES TO

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THESE VARIANTS IS WHETHER THEY

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ARE ACTUALLY CAUSING MORE SEVERE

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DISEASE, BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY

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FACTORS THAT GO INTO THAT SORT

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OF ASSESSMENT.

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SO, NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW, WHO'S

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GETTING SICK, HOW HEALTHY ARE

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THEY IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT

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ALSO THINGS LIKE HOSPITAL

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CAPACITY, RIGHT, AND WHAT ARE

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THE RESOURCES?

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THOSE CAN ALL AFFECT OUTCOMES.

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SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME,

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THERE'S NO SORT OF SUPER-CLEAR

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SIGNAL THAT THE DELTA VARIANT IS

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GOING TO BE MORE DANGEROUS TO

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KIDS, PARTICULARLY; HAVE WORSE

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OUTCOMES FOR KIDS.

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WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY SORT OF THAT

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SIGNAL.

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BUT UNDERSTANDABLY, IF YOUR KID

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IS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, THINGS

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ARE OPENING UP, YOU COULD STILL

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BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

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AND SO, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK

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THERE IS STILL A LITTLE BIT OF

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TIME UNTIL THERE'S GOING TO BE

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VACCINES AVAILABLE FOR THE

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UNDER-12s.

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>> Sreenivasan: SO, CAROLINE,

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THERE-- AND I SHOULD PUT THIS IN

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PERSPECTIVE.

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WHEN WE SPOKE IN THE WINTER, THE

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NUMBERS WERE HORRENDOUS.

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SO IF THERE IS SOME GOOD NEWS

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HERE, IT'S THAT COLLECTIVELY

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SPEAKING, WE ARE DOING FAR

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BETTER THAN THE WORST OF WHAT

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THIS VIRUS DID TO US, IN TERMS

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OF CASES AND HOSPITALIZATIONS

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AND DEATHS.

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HOWEVER, IF YOU START TO ZOOM IN

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ON THE MAP, INTO SPECIFIC AREAS,

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YOU START TO HEAR AND SEE

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STORIES OF HOSPITALS THAT ARE

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FILLING UP AGAIN.

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AND IT'S MOSTLY IN PLACES WHERE

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THERE ARE LARGE POPULATIONS OF

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UNVACCINATED PEOPLE.

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>> RIGHT.

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I MEAN, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS

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JUST WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT

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SCIENTIFICALLY, AND IT'S BEARING

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OUT HERE.

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WHERE THE VIRUS IS GOING TO

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INFECT AND GO AFTER-- YOU KNOW,

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I DON'T WANT TO ANTHROPOMORPHIZE

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THE VIRUS HERE, BUT YOU KNOW,

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THE VIRUS WILL MORE LIKELY BE

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ABLE TO INFECT SOMEBODY WHO'S

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UNVACCINATED.

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THAT'’’S JUST A FACT THERE.

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SO IF YOU HAVE CLUSTERS OF

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PEOPLE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED AND

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STATES ARE OPENING UP AND NOT

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REQUIRING PEOPLE TO STAY AT HOME

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OR WEAR MASKS, IT'S

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UNFORTUNATELY INEVITABLE THAT

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YOU WILL START TO SEE CASES

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SURGE IN THOSE AREAS.

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SO, THAT'’’S ZOOMING WAY IN.

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ZOOMING WAY OUT, AND LOOKING

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BEYOND OUR BORDERS, YOU ALSO SEE

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OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE

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UNFORTUNATELY SWAMPED.

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YOU KNOW, IN SOME COUNTRIES,

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IT'S THE WORST THE PANDEMIC HAS

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BEEN SO FAR, FOR THEM.

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AND ALSO, THIS IS OFTEN

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CORRELATED WITH EXTREMELY LOW

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VACCINATION RATES.

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>> Sreenivasan: SO, WHEN WE HAVE

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THESE SORT OF FORCES COMBINING,

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MEANING, WE'VE GOT COUNTRIES WHO

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STILL DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO

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VACCINES, WE'VE GOT POCKETS IN

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THE UNITED STATES WHERE PEOPLE,

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FOR WHATEVER REASON, CHOOSE NOT

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TO TAKE THEM.

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DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE IS AN

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OPPORTUNITY HERE FOR AMERICANS

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TO KIND OF BREED THE NEXT

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VARIANT OF THE VIRUS?

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I MEAN, DOES THE VIRUS HAVE A

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BETTER CHANCE OF ESCAPING

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IMMUNITY IN POPULATIONS WHERE

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NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE

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VACCINATED?

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>> WELL, I THINK ANY TIME

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SOMEBODY GETS INFECTED, IT IS

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AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE VIRUS TO

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MUTATE.

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AND WE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS

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IS JUST SOMETHING, YOU KNOW,

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THERE'S NO MALICIOUS INTENT HERE

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WITH THE VIRUS.

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IT'S JUST, AS IT COPIES ITSELF,

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SOMETIMES MISTAKES HAPPEN AND

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THAT CREATES A MUTATION.

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NOT EVERY MUTATION IS A VARIANT

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THAT WE WOULD EVEN CARE ABOUT.

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A LOT OF THEM MAY BECOME WEAKER.

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AND, YOU KNOW, SO IT IS-- IT IS

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A GAME OF CHANCES, IN A WAY.

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YOU KNOW, IF WE GIVE IT LOTS AND

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LOTS OF OPPORTUNITIES TO

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CONTINUE INFECTING PEOPLE, THERE

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ARE MORE CHANCES FOR IT TO

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MUTATE, AND THERE ARE MORE

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CHANCES FOR ONE OF THOSE TO

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BECOME A VARIANT THAT WE ARE

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EVEN MORE CONCERNED ABOUT.

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AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, OVER

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TIME, WITH EVOLUTION, THE ONES

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THAT ARE STRONGER ARE GOING TO

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WIN OUT.

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AND WE'RE VERY LUCKY SO FAR THAT

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THE VACCINES ARE AT LEAST

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SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE AGAINST ALL

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OF THE VARIANTS OF CONCERN THAT

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WE'’’RE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW.

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WE DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GOING TO

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BE TRUE ALWAYS.

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SO I THINK ABOUT, LIKE, WHAT ARE

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THE PARTS THAT WE CAN CONTROL TO

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MAKE THE OUTCOMES BETTER, RIGHT?

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AND AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED

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EARLIER, THERE ARE FACTORS THAT

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ARE NOT SORT OF INHERENT TO THE

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VIRUS, THINGS LIKE WHAT

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RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE, HOW--

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HOW FULL ARE THE HOSPITALS.

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ALL OF THESE SORTS OF THINGS CAN

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AFFECT THE OUTCOMES.

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AND VACCINATIONS, RIGHT.

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SO THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE

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CAN ACT ON.

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SO, I FEEL THEN THAT IF YOU'RE

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AN ADULT WHO'S ELIGIBLE FOR THE

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VACCINE AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY

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MEDICAL CONCERNS, THAT'S YOUR

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WAY OF BEING ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE

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TO CHANGING THE OUTCOMES HERE,

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FOR EVERYONE.

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>> Sreenivasan: WHAT ARE YOU

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HEARING FROM EXPERTS, WHEN IT

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COMES TO FIGURING OUT HOW TO GET

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THAT LAST 20% OR 30% VACCINATED?

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>> YEAH, I THINK THE FIRST THING

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IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS,

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WHATEVER THE PERCENTAGE OF

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PEOPLE IN YOUR REGION WHO

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HAVEN'T BEEN VACCINATED YET,

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THEY'’’RE NOT A MONOLITH.

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SO, THERE'S NOT ONE REASON OR

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ONE ANSWER.

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I MEAN, THAT WOULD BE MAYBE

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EASIER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH

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OFFICIALS TO COMBAT, BUT

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UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S NOT THE

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CASE.

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SO THERE ARE GOING TO BE A GROUP

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OF DIE-HARD, "NEVER GOING TO GET

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A VACCINE, NOTHING YOU SAY CAN

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CONVINCE ME," WHETHER THAT'S

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BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME

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MISINFORMATION AT HAND THAT

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THEY'RE BELIEVING, OR WHETHER

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IT'S, YOU KNOW, A GRAND

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CONSPIRACY THEORY TO THEM.

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LIKE, THEY'RE-- UNFORTUNATELY,

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THEY'RE JUST GOING TO BE PEOPLE

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WHO ARE NEVER GOING TO ACCEPT

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VACCINATIONS.

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BUT THERE ARE MANY OTHER PEOPLE

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WHO WE'VE SEEN OVER THE COURSE

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OF THE PANDEMIC WHO STARTED OUT

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WITH SOME QUESTIONS OR DOUBTS--

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A LOT OF THEM WHICH WERE VERY

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VALID.

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YOU KNOW, WANTING TO SEE MORE

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DATA, WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THE

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SAFETY PROFILE.

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MAYBE THAT THEY WERE CONFUSED BY

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MISINFORMATION THAT WAS GOING

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AROUND ON THE INTERNET.

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AND, HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO

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HAVE THOSE ONE-ON-ONE

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CONVERSATIONS WITH THEIR

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PROVIDER, YOU KNOW, WITH A

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FAMILY MEMBER WHO COULD KIND OF

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TALK THEM THROUGH THEIR FEARS.

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THAT'S WHAT SORT OF CHANGED

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THEIR MIND.

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AND SO I THINK THAT THERE IS

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STILL A GOOD PERCENTAGE THAT CAN

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BE CONVINCED OVER TIME WITH

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REPEATED CONVERSATIONS.

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AND I THINK THAT IT IS DOING A

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DISSERVICE TO FOLKS WHO HAVE

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CONCERNS AND FEARS TO JUST SAY,

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YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO LUMP

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YOU IN WITH PEOPLE AND SAY,

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LIKE, YOU'’’RE A LOST CAUSE HERE.

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>> Sreenivasan: CAROLINE CHEN OF

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PROPUBLICA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR

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JOINING US.

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>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

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GOOD TO SEE YOU.