>> Sreenivasan: FOR MORE ON THE
RISE IN COVID CASES, INCLUDING
WHAT THE LATEST VARIANT COULD
MEAN FOR CHILDREN NOT YET
ELIGIBLE FOR VACCINES, I SPOKE
WITH PROPUBLICA REPORTER
CAROLINE CHEN.
>> I THINK THAT THIS IS A
PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT TIME, I
CAN IMAGINE, FOR A LOT OF
PARENTS, WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT,
YOU KNOW, HOW CAN I PROTECT MY
KID?
WE WANT THEM TO GO BACK TO
SCHOOL.
SCHOOLS MAY HAVE ALREADY BEEN
OPENED AND BACK IN SESSION.
SO I THINK THE THING THAT WE
KNOW FOR SURE ABOUT THE DELTA
VARIANT IS THAT IT IS MORE
CONTAGIOUS, AT LEAST, THAN THE
WILD TYPE VARIANT.
WHAT'S MUCH HARDER FOR US TO
ASSESS CLEARLY WHEN IT COMES TO
THESE VARIANTS IS WHETHER THEY
ARE ACTUALLY CAUSING MORE SEVERE
DISEASE, BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY
FACTORS THAT GO INTO THAT SORT
OF ASSESSMENT.
SO, NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW, WHO'S
GETTING SICK, HOW HEALTHY ARE
THEY IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT
ALSO THINGS LIKE HOSPITAL
CAPACITY, RIGHT, AND WHAT ARE
THE RESOURCES?
THOSE CAN ALL AFFECT OUTCOMES.
SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME,
THERE'S NO SORT OF SUPER-CLEAR
SIGNAL THAT THE DELTA VARIANT IS
GOING TO BE MORE DANGEROUS TO
KIDS, PARTICULARLY; HAVE WORSE
OUTCOMES FOR KIDS.
WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY SORT OF THAT
SIGNAL.
BUT UNDERSTANDABLY, IF YOUR KID
IS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, THINGS
ARE OPENING UP, YOU COULD STILL
BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.
AND SO, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK
THERE IS STILL A LITTLE BIT OF
TIME UNTIL THERE'S GOING TO BE
VACCINES AVAILABLE FOR THE
UNDER-12s.
>> Sreenivasan: SO, CAROLINE,
THERE-- AND I SHOULD PUT THIS IN
PERSPECTIVE.
WHEN WE SPOKE IN THE WINTER, THE
NUMBERS WERE HORRENDOUS.
SO IF THERE IS SOME GOOD NEWS
HERE, IT'S THAT COLLECTIVELY
SPEAKING, WE ARE DOING FAR
BETTER THAN THE WORST OF WHAT
THIS VIRUS DID TO US, IN TERMS
OF CASES AND HOSPITALIZATIONS
AND DEATHS.
HOWEVER, IF YOU START TO ZOOM IN
ON THE MAP, INTO SPECIFIC AREAS,
YOU START TO HEAR AND SEE
STORIES OF HOSPITALS THAT ARE
FILLING UP AGAIN.
AND IT'S MOSTLY IN PLACES WHERE
THERE ARE LARGE POPULATIONS OF
UNVACCINATED PEOPLE.
>> RIGHT.
I MEAN, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS
JUST WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT
SCIENTIFICALLY, AND IT'S BEARING
OUT HERE.
WHERE THE VIRUS IS GOING TO
INFECT AND GO AFTER-- YOU KNOW,
I DON'T WANT TO ANTHROPOMORPHIZE
THE VIRUS HERE, BUT YOU KNOW,
THE VIRUS WILL MORE LIKELY BE
ABLE TO INFECT SOMEBODY WHO'S
UNVACCINATED.
THAT'’’S JUST A FACT THERE.
SO IF YOU HAVE CLUSTERS OF
PEOPLE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED AND
STATES ARE OPENING UP AND NOT
REQUIRING PEOPLE TO STAY AT HOME
OR WEAR MASKS, IT'S
UNFORTUNATELY INEVITABLE THAT
YOU WILL START TO SEE CASES
SURGE IN THOSE AREAS.
SO, THAT'’’S ZOOMING WAY IN.
ZOOMING WAY OUT, AND LOOKING
BEYOND OUR BORDERS, YOU ALSO SEE
OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE
UNFORTUNATELY SWAMPED.
YOU KNOW, IN SOME COUNTRIES,
IT'S THE WORST THE PANDEMIC HAS
BEEN SO FAR, FOR THEM.
AND ALSO, THIS IS OFTEN
CORRELATED WITH EXTREMELY LOW
VACCINATION RATES.
>> Sreenivasan: SO, WHEN WE HAVE
THESE SORT OF FORCES COMBINING,
MEANING, WE'VE GOT COUNTRIES WHO
STILL DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO
VACCINES, WE'VE GOT POCKETS IN
THE UNITED STATES WHERE PEOPLE,
FOR WHATEVER REASON, CHOOSE NOT
TO TAKE THEM.
DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE IS AN
OPPORTUNITY HERE FOR AMERICANS
TO KIND OF BREED THE NEXT
VARIANT OF THE VIRUS?
I MEAN, DOES THE VIRUS HAVE A
BETTER CHANCE OF ESCAPING
IMMUNITY IN POPULATIONS WHERE
NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE
VACCINATED?
>> WELL, I THINK ANY TIME
SOMEBODY GETS INFECTED, IT IS
AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE VIRUS TO
MUTATE.
AND WE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS
IS JUST SOMETHING, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S NO MALICIOUS INTENT HERE
WITH THE VIRUS.
IT'S JUST, AS IT COPIES ITSELF,
SOMETIMES MISTAKES HAPPEN AND
THAT CREATES A MUTATION.
NOT EVERY MUTATION IS A VARIANT
THAT WE WOULD EVEN CARE ABOUT.
A LOT OF THEM MAY BECOME WEAKER.
AND, YOU KNOW, SO IT IS-- IT IS
A GAME OF CHANCES, IN A WAY.
YOU KNOW, IF WE GIVE IT LOTS AND
LOTS OF OPPORTUNITIES TO
CONTINUE INFECTING PEOPLE, THERE
ARE MORE CHANCES FOR IT TO
MUTATE, AND THERE ARE MORE
CHANCES FOR ONE OF THOSE TO
BECOME A VARIANT THAT WE ARE
EVEN MORE CONCERNED ABOUT.
AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, OVER
TIME, WITH EVOLUTION, THE ONES
THAT ARE STRONGER ARE GOING TO
WIN OUT.
AND WE'RE VERY LUCKY SO FAR THAT
THE VACCINES ARE AT LEAST
SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE AGAINST ALL
OF THE VARIANTS OF CONCERN THAT
WE'’’RE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW.
WE DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GOING TO
BE TRUE ALWAYS.
SO I THINK ABOUT, LIKE, WHAT ARE
THE PARTS THAT WE CAN CONTROL TO
MAKE THE OUTCOMES BETTER, RIGHT?
AND AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED
EARLIER, THERE ARE FACTORS THAT
ARE NOT SORT OF INHERENT TO THE
VIRUS, THINGS LIKE WHAT
RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE, HOW--
HOW FULL ARE THE HOSPITALS.
ALL OF THESE SORTS OF THINGS CAN
AFFECT THE OUTCOMES.
AND VACCINATIONS, RIGHT.
SO THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE
CAN ACT ON.
SO, I FEEL THEN THAT IF YOU'RE
AN ADULT WHO'S ELIGIBLE FOR THE
VACCINE AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY
MEDICAL CONCERNS, THAT'S YOUR
WAY OF BEING ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE
TO CHANGING THE OUTCOMES HERE,
FOR EVERYONE.
>> Sreenivasan: WHAT ARE YOU
HEARING FROM EXPERTS, WHEN IT
COMES TO FIGURING OUT HOW TO GET
THAT LAST 20% OR 30% VACCINATED?
>> YEAH, I THINK THE FIRST THING
IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS,
WHATEVER THE PERCENTAGE OF
PEOPLE IN YOUR REGION WHO
HAVEN'T BEEN VACCINATED YET,
THEY'’’RE NOT A MONOLITH.
SO, THERE'S NOT ONE REASON OR
ONE ANSWER.
I MEAN, THAT WOULD BE MAYBE
EASIER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH
OFFICIALS TO COMBAT, BUT
UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S NOT THE
CASE.
SO THERE ARE GOING TO BE A GROUP
OF DIE-HARD, "NEVER GOING TO GET
A VACCINE, NOTHING YOU SAY CAN
CONVINCE ME," WHETHER THAT'S
BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME
MISINFORMATION AT HAND THAT
THEY'RE BELIEVING, OR WHETHER
IT'S, YOU KNOW, A GRAND
CONSPIRACY THEORY TO THEM.
LIKE, THEY'RE-- UNFORTUNATELY,
THEY'RE JUST GOING TO BE PEOPLE
WHO ARE NEVER GOING TO ACCEPT
VACCINATIONS.
BUT THERE ARE MANY OTHER PEOPLE
WHO WE'VE SEEN OVER THE COURSE
OF THE PANDEMIC WHO STARTED OUT
WITH SOME QUESTIONS OR DOUBTS--
A LOT OF THEM WHICH WERE VERY
VALID.
YOU KNOW, WANTING TO SEE MORE
DATA, WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THE
SAFETY PROFILE.
MAYBE THAT THEY WERE CONFUSED BY
MISINFORMATION THAT WAS GOING
AROUND ON THE INTERNET.
AND, HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO
HAVE THOSE ONE-ON-ONE
CONVERSATIONS WITH THEIR
PROVIDER, YOU KNOW, WITH A
FAMILY MEMBER WHO COULD KIND OF
TALK THEM THROUGH THEIR FEARS.
THAT'S WHAT SORT OF CHANGED
THEIR MIND.
AND SO I THINK THAT THERE IS
STILL A GOOD PERCENTAGE THAT CAN
BE CONVINCED OVER TIME WITH
REPEATED CONVERSATIONS.
AND I THINK THAT IT IS DOING A
DISSERVICE TO FOLKS WHO HAVE
CONCERNS AND FEARS TO JUST SAY,
YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO LUMP
YOU IN WITH PEOPLE AND SAY,
LIKE, YOU'’’RE A LOST CAUSE HERE.
>> Sreenivasan: CAROLINE CHEN OF
PROPUBLICA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR
JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
GOOD TO SEE YOU.