>> Sreenivasan: FOR MORE ON THE

RISE IN COVID CASES, INCLUDING

WHAT THE LATEST VARIANT COULD

MEAN FOR CHILDREN NOT YET

ELIGIBLE FOR VACCINES, I SPOKE

WITH PROPUBLICA REPORTER

CAROLINE CHEN.

>> I THINK THAT THIS IS A

PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT TIME, I

CAN IMAGINE, FOR A LOT OF

PARENTS, WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT,

YOU KNOW, HOW CAN I PROTECT MY

KID?

WE WANT THEM TO GO BACK TO

SCHOOL.

SCHOOLS MAY HAVE ALREADY BEEN

OPENED AND BACK IN SESSION.

SO I THINK THE THING THAT WE

KNOW FOR SURE ABOUT THE DELTA

VARIANT IS THAT IT IS MORE

CONTAGIOUS, AT LEAST, THAN THE

WILD TYPE VARIANT.

WHAT'S MUCH HARDER FOR US TO

ASSESS CLEARLY WHEN IT COMES TO

THESE VARIANTS IS WHETHER THEY

ARE ACTUALLY CAUSING MORE SEVERE

DISEASE, BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY

FACTORS THAT GO INTO THAT SORT

OF ASSESSMENT.

SO, NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW, WHO'S

GETTING SICK, HOW HEALTHY ARE

THEY IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT

ALSO THINGS LIKE HOSPITAL

CAPACITY, RIGHT, AND WHAT ARE

THE RESOURCES?

THOSE CAN ALL AFFECT OUTCOMES.

SO AT THIS POINT IN TIME,

THERE'S NO SORT OF SUPER-CLEAR

SIGNAL THAT THE DELTA VARIANT IS

GOING TO BE MORE DANGEROUS TO

KIDS, PARTICULARLY; HAVE WORSE

OUTCOMES FOR KIDS.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY SORT OF THAT

SIGNAL.

BUT UNDERSTANDABLY, IF YOUR KID

IS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, THINGS

ARE OPENING UP, YOU COULD STILL

BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

AND SO, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK

THERE IS STILL A LITTLE BIT OF

TIME UNTIL THERE'S GOING TO BE

VACCINES AVAILABLE FOR THE

UNDER-12s.

>> Sreenivasan: SO, CAROLINE,

THERE-- AND I SHOULD PUT THIS IN

PERSPECTIVE.

WHEN WE SPOKE IN THE WINTER, THE

NUMBERS WERE HORRENDOUS.

SO IF THERE IS SOME GOOD NEWS

HERE, IT'S THAT COLLECTIVELY

SPEAKING, WE ARE DOING FAR

BETTER THAN THE WORST OF WHAT

THIS VIRUS DID TO US, IN TERMS

OF CASES AND HOSPITALIZATIONS

AND DEATHS.

HOWEVER, IF YOU START TO ZOOM IN

ON THE MAP, INTO SPECIFIC AREAS,

YOU START TO HEAR AND SEE

STORIES OF HOSPITALS THAT ARE

FILLING UP AGAIN.

AND IT'S MOSTLY IN PLACES WHERE

THERE ARE LARGE POPULATIONS OF

UNVACCINATED PEOPLE.

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS

JUST WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT

SCIENTIFICALLY, AND IT'S BEARING

OUT HERE.

WHERE THE VIRUS IS GOING TO

INFECT AND GO AFTER-- YOU KNOW,

I DON'T WANT TO ANTHROPOMORPHIZE

THE VIRUS HERE, BUT YOU KNOW,

THE VIRUS WILL MORE LIKELY BE

ABLE TO INFECT SOMEBODY WHO'S

UNVACCINATED.

THAT'’’S JUST A FACT THERE.

SO IF YOU HAVE CLUSTERS OF

PEOPLE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED AND

STATES ARE OPENING UP AND NOT

REQUIRING PEOPLE TO STAY AT HOME

OR WEAR MASKS, IT'S

UNFORTUNATELY INEVITABLE THAT

YOU WILL START TO SEE CASES

SURGE IN THOSE AREAS.

SO, THAT'’’S ZOOMING WAY IN.

ZOOMING WAY OUT, AND LOOKING

BEYOND OUR BORDERS, YOU ALSO SEE

OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE

UNFORTUNATELY SWAMPED.

YOU KNOW, IN SOME COUNTRIES,

IT'S THE WORST THE PANDEMIC HAS

BEEN SO FAR, FOR THEM.

AND ALSO, THIS IS OFTEN

CORRELATED WITH EXTREMELY LOW

VACCINATION RATES.

>> Sreenivasan: SO, WHEN WE HAVE

THESE SORT OF FORCES COMBINING,

MEANING, WE'VE GOT COUNTRIES WHO

STILL DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO

VACCINES, WE'VE GOT POCKETS IN

THE UNITED STATES WHERE PEOPLE,

FOR WHATEVER REASON, CHOOSE NOT

TO TAKE THEM.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE IS AN

OPPORTUNITY HERE FOR AMERICANS

TO KIND OF BREED THE NEXT

VARIANT OF THE VIRUS?

I MEAN, DOES THE VIRUS HAVE A

BETTER CHANCE OF ESCAPING

IMMUNITY IN POPULATIONS WHERE

NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE

VACCINATED?

>> WELL, I THINK ANY TIME

SOMEBODY GETS INFECTED, IT IS

AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE VIRUS TO

MUTATE.

AND WE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS

IS JUST SOMETHING, YOU KNOW,

THERE'S NO MALICIOUS INTENT HERE

WITH THE VIRUS.

IT'S JUST, AS IT COPIES ITSELF,

SOMETIMES MISTAKES HAPPEN AND

THAT CREATES A MUTATION.

NOT EVERY MUTATION IS A VARIANT

THAT WE WOULD EVEN CARE ABOUT.

A LOT OF THEM MAY BECOME WEAKER.

AND, YOU KNOW, SO IT IS-- IT IS

A GAME OF CHANCES, IN A WAY.

YOU KNOW, IF WE GIVE IT LOTS AND

LOTS OF OPPORTUNITIES TO

CONTINUE INFECTING PEOPLE, THERE

ARE MORE CHANCES FOR IT TO

MUTATE, AND THERE ARE MORE

CHANCES FOR ONE OF THOSE TO

BECOME A VARIANT THAT WE ARE

EVEN MORE CONCERNED ABOUT.

AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, OVER

TIME, WITH EVOLUTION, THE ONES

THAT ARE STRONGER ARE GOING TO

WIN OUT.

AND WE'RE VERY LUCKY SO FAR THAT

THE VACCINES ARE AT LEAST

SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE AGAINST ALL

OF THE VARIANTS OF CONCERN THAT

WE'’’RE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW.

WE DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GOING TO

BE TRUE ALWAYS.

SO I THINK ABOUT, LIKE, WHAT ARE

THE PARTS THAT WE CAN CONTROL TO

MAKE THE OUTCOMES BETTER, RIGHT?

AND AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED

EARLIER, THERE ARE FACTORS THAT

ARE NOT SORT OF INHERENT TO THE

VIRUS, THINGS LIKE WHAT

RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE, HOW--

HOW FULL ARE THE HOSPITALS.

ALL OF THESE SORTS OF THINGS CAN

AFFECT THE OUTCOMES.

AND VACCINATIONS, RIGHT.

SO THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE

CAN ACT ON.

SO, I FEEL THEN THAT IF YOU'RE

AN ADULT WHO'S ELIGIBLE FOR THE

VACCINE AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY

MEDICAL CONCERNS, THAT'S YOUR

WAY OF BEING ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE

TO CHANGING THE OUTCOMES HERE,

FOR EVERYONE.

>> Sreenivasan: WHAT ARE YOU

HEARING FROM EXPERTS, WHEN IT

COMES TO FIGURING OUT HOW TO GET

THAT LAST 20% OR 30% VACCINATED?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE FIRST THING

IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS,

WHATEVER THE PERCENTAGE OF

PEOPLE IN YOUR REGION WHO

HAVEN'T BEEN VACCINATED YET,

THEY'’’RE NOT A MONOLITH.

SO, THERE'S NOT ONE REASON OR

ONE ANSWER.

I MEAN, THAT WOULD BE MAYBE

EASIER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH

OFFICIALS TO COMBAT, BUT

UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S NOT THE

CASE.

SO THERE ARE GOING TO BE A GROUP

OF DIE-HARD, "NEVER GOING TO GET

A VACCINE, NOTHING YOU SAY CAN

CONVINCE ME," WHETHER THAT'S

BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME

MISINFORMATION AT HAND THAT

THEY'RE BELIEVING, OR WHETHER

IT'S, YOU KNOW, A GRAND

CONSPIRACY THEORY TO THEM.

LIKE, THEY'RE-- UNFORTUNATELY,

THEY'RE JUST GOING TO BE PEOPLE

WHO ARE NEVER GOING TO ACCEPT

VACCINATIONS.

BUT THERE ARE MANY OTHER PEOPLE

WHO WE'VE SEEN OVER THE COURSE

OF THE PANDEMIC WHO STARTED OUT

WITH SOME QUESTIONS OR DOUBTS--

A LOT OF THEM WHICH WERE VERY

VALID.

YOU KNOW, WANTING TO SEE MORE

DATA, WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THE

SAFETY PROFILE.

MAYBE THAT THEY WERE CONFUSED BY

MISINFORMATION THAT WAS GOING

AROUND ON THE INTERNET.

AND, HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO

HAVE THOSE ONE-ON-ONE

CONVERSATIONS WITH THEIR

PROVIDER, YOU KNOW, WITH A

FAMILY MEMBER WHO COULD KIND OF

TALK THEM THROUGH THEIR FEARS.

THAT'S WHAT SORT OF CHANGED

THEIR MIND.

AND SO I THINK THAT THERE IS

STILL A GOOD PERCENTAGE THAT CAN

BE CONVINCED OVER TIME WITH

REPEATED CONVERSATIONS.

AND I THINK THAT IT IS DOING A

DISSERVICE TO FOLKS WHO HAVE

CONCERNS AND FEARS TO JUST SAY,

YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO LUMP

YOU IN WITH PEOPLE AND SAY,

LIKE, YOU'’’RE A LOST CAUSE HERE.

>> Sreenivasan: CAROLINE CHEN OF

PROPUBLICA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR

JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.