WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:03.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: As you have been hearing, there are more protests planned around the country 00:03.666 --> 00:07.933 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% tonight, and many organizers say they want them to be peaceful. 00:07.933 --> 00:10.800 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% But there is no certainty they will stay that way. 00:10.800 --> 00:15.800 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% We talk now with two people with experience managing unrest in their cities. 00:18.133 --> 00:21.233 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% Michael Nutter is the former mayor of Philadelphia. And Christopher Swanson is the sheriff of 00:23.200 --> 00:26.500 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Genesee County, Michigan. He received national attention for his approach to demonstrators 00:27.233 --> 00:28.833 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% in Flint this weekend. 00:28.833 --> 00:31.333 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% Here's how some of that went. 00:31.333 --> 00:34.900 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% CHRISTOPHER SWANSON, Genesee County, Michigan, Sheriff: We want to be with you all for real. 00:36.400 --> 00:41.100 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% So I took the helmet off. They laid the batons down. 00:42.333 --> 00:44.866 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% I want to make this a parade, not a protest. 00:44.866 --> 00:47.733 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% So, you tell us what you need to do. 00:47.733 --> 00:49.766 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% PROTESTER: Walk with us! 00:49.766 --> 00:51.833 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% PROTESTER: Walk with us! 00:51.833 --> 00:53.866 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% PROTESTER: Walk with us! 00:53.866 --> 00:58.833 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% PROTESTERS: Walk with us! Walk with us! Walk with us! 01:00.000 --> 01:02.000 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% CHRISTOPHER SWANSON: Let's walk. Let's walk. 01:02.000 --> 01:03.533 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 01:03.533 --> 01:07.133 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% PROTESTER: Walk with us! Walk with us! 01:07.133 --> 01:12.133 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Sheriff Swanson, watching that video, why did you decide to do that? 01:13.466 --> 01:16.000 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% You were expressing solidarity with these protesters. 01:16.000 --> 01:18.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% CHRISTOPHER SWANSON: You are right. 01:18.333 --> 01:20.433 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% And thanks for having me. 01:20.433 --> 01:24.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And I can tell you that that night on May 30 made history on how to handle protests 01:27.000 --> 01:30.433 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% in a way that was honorable. Our city is already under enough oppression. We are already dealing 01:30.433 --> 01:33.566 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% with economic issues, a water crisis, and a pandemic. 01:33.566 --> 01:38.566 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And it was just the right thing to do. As a veteran police officer who knows the community, 01:40.566 --> 01:44.466 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% I saw acts of kindness with fist bump, a small hug. And I went to my right, and I saw that. 01:46.500 --> 01:50.933 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And I said, I'm taking the helmet off. We're putting our batons down and I'm walking in 01:50.933 --> 01:52.966 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% the crowd. 01:52.966 --> 01:56.333 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And when I did that, that act of vulnerability, probably wasn't the best tactical move, by 01:56.333 --> 02:01.300 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% any means. It sent a message. And that message was that I need to say, we don't agree, that's 02:03.933 --> 02:07.166 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% not who we are, what happened to Mr. Floyd. 02:07.166 --> 02:12.166 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And when I said that to the crowd, the second question, what do we need to do now is to 02:14.633 --> 02:17.300 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% walk with us, that changed everything, because now they had a voice. And they wanted somebody 02:18.733 --> 02:21.100 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% to listen to, and that's what was the change agent. 02:21.100 --> 02:26.100 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: Mayor Nutter, former Mayor Nutter, how often does something like that 02:27.533 --> 02:29.533 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% happen, in your experience? 02:29.533 --> 02:32.266 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% MICHAEL NUTTER (D), Former Mayor of Philadelphia: Unfortunately, Judy, it's pretty rare. 02:32.266 --> 02:36.666 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% And, Sheriff Swanson, thank you for your leadership. 02:36.666 --> 02:41.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% I also understand that something similar happened in Camden, New Jersey, just across the river 02:44.733 --> 02:49.733 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% from us here in Philadelphia. I think, increasingly, Judy, these issues, these challenges can only 02:52.100 --> 02:57.066 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% be solved by partnership and cooperation, by police and community working together. 02:59.066 --> 03:03.466 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But, also, because of the racial aspect of this, the -- black Americans need to hear 03:07.466 --> 03:12.466 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% that white people really do understand, and are not only listening but they're hearing 03:15.133 --> 03:17.233 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% what we say. 03:17.233 --> 03:21.500 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% The issues and challenges, you know, if you think about the last three, four months, what 03:23.466 --> 03:28.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% has happened? Suddenly, worldwide pandemic, everyone forced into their home. Virtually, 03:30.766 --> 03:33.633 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% no one can work. Thousands, millions of people have lost their jobs. Forty-some million Americans 03:34.500 --> 03:36.600 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% have filed for unemployment. 03:36.600 --> 03:40.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And then we see the video from Ahmaud Arbery's assassination, chased down by two or three 03:45.466 --> 03:50.466 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% white people, kill him. We see Mr. Floyd killed in the streets, and a new autopsy report, 03:54.366 --> 03:59.333 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% homicide at the hands of police. We see or hear about Mr. Cooper in Central Park, where, 04:02.233 --> 04:07.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% unfortunately, a white female used his race as a weapon to -- against Mr. Cooper, who 04:09.500 --> 04:12.866 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% was doing nothing. And that could have turned out very badly. 04:12.866 --> 04:17.066 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And incident after incident after incident, and people are just tired, Judy. They are 04:17.066 --> 04:18.066 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% really pissed off. 04:18.066 --> 04:19.300 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: Sheriff... 04:19.300 --> 04:20.800 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% MICHAEL NUTTER: I hate to say that on PBS. 04:20.800 --> 04:23.900 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, that's the way a lot of people feel. 04:23.900 --> 04:28.900 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Sheriff Swanson, how do you know? How does someone in law enforcement, in your position, 04:30.833 --> 04:34.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% know when the moment is right to do this? Because, as we said, there are a lot of people 04:34.233 --> 04:39.233 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% who want these protests to be peaceful, but there are sometimes -- you know, things get 04:39.833 --> 04:42.300 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% out of control. 04:42.300 --> 04:45.333 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% People get involved who take things to a different place. How is law enforcement to handle that? 04:46.900 --> 04:48.900 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% What's the best approach? 04:48.900 --> 04:52.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% CHRISTOPHER SWANSON: Well, first of all, you got to know your community. The mayor is spot 04:52.400 --> 04:55.333 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% on. I'm sure he knows Philly better than anybody. 04:55.333 --> 04:59.166 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But if you separate yourself, especially as a police executive, from the streets, and 04:59.166 --> 05:04.166 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% how you go, and you lose touch, you become tone-deaf to what the language is, that separation 05:06.800 --> 05:08.800 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% creates a divide. 05:08.800 --> 05:13.433 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And now it just so happens that divide is police against African-Americans that has 05:15.633 --> 05:20.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% set the tone. But that tone can be reversed. And we saw that here in Flint, Michigan. In 05:22.600 --> 05:26.733 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% eight minutes and 46 seconds, one individual who wore the same uniform and badge, but isn't 05:29.233 --> 05:32.500 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% who we are, he eroded and raced years of inroads that communities have built with their people, 05:34.700 --> 05:39.700 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% that law enforcement has tried so hard, that mayors in townships and cities across the 05:40.566 --> 05:42.666 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% nation have tried to build. 05:42.666 --> 05:46.966 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% But those relationships were key. And I walked into that crowd. I'm going to tell you, being 05:46.966 --> 05:51.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% 27 years on the job, it wasn't just something that I thought of. I would like to say that 05:51.233 --> 05:53.266 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% I strategized. And it wasn't it. 05:53.266 --> 05:57.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% I love my people. I love the people of the community. I have served them for my entire 05:57.533 --> 06:02.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% adult life. I felt comfortable, although not the best tactical decision, as I mentioned. 06:04.500 --> 06:08.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But I knew that, if I laid down my weapons and I walked in, in a position of vulnerability, 06:10.033 --> 06:11.966 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% they would see this as an action, not just words. 06:11.966 --> 06:16.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Just like the mayor said, people are tired of words. They're tired of empty promises. 06:16.400 --> 06:19.200 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% And when they saw that, it changed their hearts. 06:19.200 --> 06:23.733 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And we haven't stopped there. Day two, we had demonstrations right on the front of our 06:23.733 --> 06:28.733 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% lawn. We took care of people. We served them. No issues. Today, we had more demonstrations. 06:30.633 --> 06:34.933 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Served them, protected them. Three days, no arrests, no fires, no injuries. 06:36.933 --> 06:41.200 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: Mayor, let me just finally - - we have less than a minute, Mayor Nutter. 06:43.100 --> 06:45.933 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% President Trump today is calling on governors to get tougher. He's saying, if you don't 06:45.933 --> 06:50.300 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% dominate, then you are seen as weak, they will see you as jerks. 06:50.300 --> 06:55.300 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Is this a message that law enforcement should be heeding, governors should be heeding? 06:57.300 --> 07:00.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% MICHAEL NUTTER: That is just accelerating the feelings of oppression that black people, 07:02.633 --> 07:07.300 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% Latino people, other people of color have already been feeling. 07:07.300 --> 07:12.300 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Donald Trump has no idea how to manage in a crisis. He has no -- as the chief talked 07:14.333 --> 07:18.100 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% about, he has no feeling of the street. This is not about domination. This is about working 07:18.100 --> 07:20.166 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% with people. 07:20.166 --> 07:23.266 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But, Judy, you alluded to something, and I want to take it head on. But there are some 07:23.266 --> 07:28.266 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% people at these protests whose interests are not about Mr. Floyd, whose interests are not 07:30.200 --> 07:34.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% about black people, whose interests are not about equity and justice. 07:34.233 --> 07:38.700 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% There are people who want destruction. They want chaos. They want confusion. And they 07:38.700 --> 07:43.700 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% mesh into, they meld into some of these crowds. And the next thing you know, you have chaos. 07:45.666 --> 07:50.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Now, Donald Trump likes chaos. And he likes this environment, because he can now play 07:52.633 --> 07:57.066 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% to his political base that he has to keep these people in control. This is a political 07:59.133 --> 08:01.833 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% game that he is playing. And we're talking about life and death, the life and death of 08:01.833 --> 08:04.400 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% people and the life and death of communities. 08:04.400 --> 08:09.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: Mayor Michael Nutter, Sheriff Swanson, Sheriff Christopher Swanson, thank 08:10.000 --> 08:10.933 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% you very much. 08:10.933 --> 08:11.866 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% CHRISTOPHER SWANSON: Thank you. 08:11.866 --> 08:12.800 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% MICHAEL NUTTER: Thank you, Judy. 08:12.800 --> 08:12.933 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% CHRISTOPHER SWANSON: Thank you.