WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:04.566 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: But first: With just a few days left until heated confirmation hearings 00:04.566 --> 00:09.566 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% for Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh begin, we continue our look at his record 00:10.966 --> 00:13.400 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% on key issues senators will likely press him on. 00:13.400 --> 00:17.833 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Tonight, business and labor, the subject of a large percentage of cases that reach the 00:17.833 --> 00:19.900 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% high court. 00:19.900 --> 00:24.000 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% I'm joined by Karen Harned, the executive director of the Small Business Legal Center 00:25.433 --> 00:27.533 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% at the National Federation of Independent Business. 00:27.533 --> 00:32.066 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And Daniel Goldberg, he's the legal director at Alliance for Justice, an advocacy group. 00:33.500 --> 00:35.800 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% And we welcome both of you to the "NewsHour." 00:35.800 --> 00:37.900 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% Karen Harned, I'm going to start with you. 00:37.900 --> 00:42.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% How -- as you look back at Judge Kavanaugh's record, how are his decisions seen by your 00:43.933 --> 00:46.566 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% - - the people you represent, small businesses? 00:46.566 --> 00:48.600 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% KAREN HARNED, Executive Director, Small Business Legal Center, National Federation of Independent 00:48.600 --> 00:50.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Business: We have been very encouraged as we have looked at his record, because, really, 00:50.600 --> 00:53.266 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% what he does is give you predictability and certainty in the law because of the way he 00:53.266 --> 00:56.266 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% approaches his decision-making. 00:56.266 --> 00:58.666 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% He starts with the text of a statute. 00:58.666 --> 01:01.533 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% He starts with what the Constitution says. 01:01.533 --> 01:05.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And so, therefore, the laws that are on the books, you have a better understanding of 01:05.633 --> 01:10.366 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% how -- how a case might actually come out, because he really doesn't deviate from what's 01:10.366 --> 01:12.666 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% before him as far as the rule of law. 01:12.666 --> 01:15.866 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: Daniel Goldberg, what about from your perspective? 01:15.866 --> 01:17.933 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% How do you see his record? 01:17.933 --> 01:19.966 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% DANIEL GOLDBERG, Alliance For Justice: You know, when the White House introduced Brett 01:19.966 --> 01:23.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Kavanaugh, they bragged that Brett Kavanaugh has undermined 75 federal protections for 01:26.600 --> 01:29.933 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% workers, for consumers, and for the environment. 01:29.933 --> 01:34.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Brett Kavanaugh is somebody who, if you look at his record, has repeatedly sided with the 01:34.633 --> 01:39.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% wealthy, the powerful, large corporations, people who are trying to take the country 01:41.800 --> 01:46.166 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% backwards and eviscerate many of the protections that workers, consumers and the American people 01:46.866 --> 01:48.833 align:left position:37.5%,start line:93.33% size:62.5% rely on. 01:48.833 --> 01:49.966 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: So we have got two very different perspectives here. 01:49.966 --> 01:52.500 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% Let's take a few specifics here. 01:52.500 --> 01:57.466 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% If you look at, I don't know, the rulings handed down, Karen, that he's written or had 01:59.466 --> 02:02.833 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% a role in, say, involving worker rights, worker safety, what do you see? 02:04.233 --> 02:06.300 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% KAREN HARNED: Well, again, it's more the approach he takes. 02:06.300 --> 02:10.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% We don't necessarily look at the result, other than like the winners and losers. 02:10.400 --> 02:14.433 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% It's more, what is he -- is he looking at the National Labor Relations Act, and what 02:14.433 --> 02:16.900 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% does that say? 02:16.900 --> 02:20.433 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% And he definitely stays true to those -- the words of whatever their congressional authorization 02:22.400 --> 02:26.100 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% is, whatever Congress has said, EPA or whatever - - Department of Labor can do under their 02:29.066 --> 02:31.100 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% statutory authority. 02:31.100 --> 02:35.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And that predictability, where Congress is the one making the laws, the administrative 02:37.300 --> 02:40.600 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% branch is interpreting them, that is, we think, the appropriate way to keep everybody in their 02:41.066 --> 02:43.133 align:left position:37.5%,start line:93.33% size:62.5% lanes. 02:43.133 --> 02:46.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And he's very, very aggressive, I would say, in keeping the agencies in particular in their 02:46.633 --> 02:47.666 align:left position:37.5%,start line:93.33% size:62.5% lanes. 02:47.666 --> 02:49.633 align:left position:25%,start line:86.67% size:75% And we find that to be very good. 02:49.633 --> 02:52.933 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Daniel, Harned -- Karen - - Daniel Goldberg, Karen is looking at it 02:52.933 --> 02:57.900 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% from the perspective of how agency rulings and regulations are handled. 02:59.966 --> 03:03.866 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% What about -- what do you see when you look at his record on workers and worker -- worker 03:03.866 --> 03:06.066 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% safety, worker rights? 03:06.066 --> 03:08.866 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% DANIEL GOLDBERG: Well, I think the case that really is illustrative of who Brett Kavanaugh 03:08.866 --> 03:11.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% is the SeaWorld case. 03:11.333 --> 03:16.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% This is a case where a trainer at SeaWorld was killed by a whale. 03:19.533 --> 03:23.266 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% Congress had given OSHA the power to protect... 03:23.266 --> 03:26.066 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: The office of Occupational Safety and Health. 03:26.066 --> 03:28.200 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% DANIEL GOLDBERG: That's correct. 03:28.200 --> 03:32.066 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% And Congress made a determination that, in this country, workers should be able to go 03:34.133 --> 03:38.666 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% to work every day and come home, and charged OSHA with the authority make sure our workplaces 03:41.733 --> 03:43.733 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% were safe. 03:43.733 --> 03:48.033 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And in this one case, that's -- OSHA found that SeaWorld had ignored warnings about this 03:51.066 --> 03:56.066 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% particular whale, had not made the safety conditions that were required, and they had 03:58.000 --> 04:00.166 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% fined SeaWorld. 04:00.166 --> 04:04.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Brett Kavanaugh dissented in this case and called even the notion of work force safety 04:05.733 --> 04:09.300 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% standards -- quote, unquote -- "paternalistic." 04:09.300 --> 04:11.366 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% That's who Brett Kavanaugh is. 04:11.366 --> 04:15.800 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And workers across the country should know that he's somebody who will undermine worker 04:16.666 --> 04:17.933 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% safety laws, among other things. 04:17.933 --> 04:19.466 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: How do you respond to that? 04:19.466 --> 04:21.600 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% KAREN HARNED: Well, I can't speak to that specific case. 04:21.600 --> 04:23.700 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% That's not one we followed. 04:23.700 --> 04:27.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But I can just say that what we have seen time and again is that he will -- he will 04:30.800 --> 04:34.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% only let agencies act as far as they are statutorily authorized to do. 04:34.600 --> 04:37.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% And I have no reason to doubt that in this case. 04:37.333 --> 04:40.066 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% Congress is there to make the laws. 04:40.066 --> 04:42.166 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% They're the ones accountable to all of us. 04:42.166 --> 04:47.166 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And he has been very, very clear in his work that, if there is a problem with a statute, 04:49.033 --> 04:51.766 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% if it doesn't go far enough to do a protection, that's on Congress. 04:51.766 --> 04:54.400 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% That's not on the agency to gap-fill. 04:54.400 --> 04:59.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And I think -- and we think that gives the certainty that small business owners I represent 04:59.233 --> 05:03.333 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% can rely on, because it's hard enough for them to know what the laws are on the books, 05:03.333 --> 05:06.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% to have to worry about new novel theories that agencies may be promoting. 05:06.233 --> 05:10.300 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: All right, let's look at another area where government decisions affect business. 05:10.300 --> 05:15.033 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% And that's with the EPA environmental regulations and rules. 05:15.033 --> 05:17.100 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% What do you see there, Daniel Goldberg? 05:17.100 --> 05:20.700 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% DANIEL GOLDBERG: Well, I think it's similar to the worker situation, where Congress has 05:20.700 --> 05:25.700 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% made a determination that we want clean air, we want clean water, the American people are 05:27.733 --> 05:31.866 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% entitled to be able to breathe clean air and drink clean water, and given the EPA the authority 05:33.766 --> 05:35.866 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% to protect our families. 05:35.866 --> 05:40.866 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% In case after case, Brett Kavanaugh has worked to undermine these protections. 05:42.833 --> 05:47.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% There's one case where he ruled that the EPA didn't have the authority to require upstates 05:53.533 --> 05:58.533 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% that were polluting to reimburse downstate areas. 06:00.566 --> 06:04.300 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And what that meant was EPA, when they issued the rule, found that thousands of people were 06:05.766 --> 06:10.766 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% alive because of the EPA rule which protected this clean air. 06:13.133 --> 06:15.700 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% KAREN HARNED: And, on that, I will just say, again, with his environmental record, I understand 06:15.700 --> 06:20.433 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% that if you want to just look at the end result, you can pick the winners and losers and maybe 06:20.433 --> 06:22.533 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% not think it's fair. 06:22.533 --> 06:26.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But what Judge Kavanaugh does is, he goes with the authority the agency had. 06:28.500 --> 06:30.900 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And I -- with EPA in particular, what we have seen over the last several decades is they 06:30.900 --> 06:35.900 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% have pushed the envelope as far as they can as far as doing the outermost bounds of what 06:37.933 --> 06:40.900 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% any statute they have requires them to do. 06:40.900 --> 06:43.000 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% And he is pushing back on that. 06:43.000 --> 06:47.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% And we think that is appropriate, because it's time for Congress to re-look at these 06:47.333 --> 06:51.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% laws, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, if they're dissatisfied with the results, 06:51.666 --> 06:53.766 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% not let EPA continue to legislate. 06:53.766 --> 06:56.466 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% And that's really where Brett Kavanaugh will take issue. 06:56.466 --> 06:58.866 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: All right, we have just less than 30 seconds. 06:58.866 --> 07:02.700 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Do you expect much of a change on the Supreme Court on these issues with Brett Kavanaugh 07:02.700 --> 07:03.900 align:left position:37.5%,start line:93.33% size:62.5% joining? 07:03.900 --> 07:05.366 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% DANIEL GOLDBERG: Sadly -- sadly not. 07:05.366 --> 07:08.033 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% The Roberts court has been a pro-corporate court. 07:08.033 --> 07:13.033 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Just s year, you saw them rule in the Epic Systems case to make it harder for people 07:15.033 --> 07:17.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% who were having their wages stolen from holding corporations accountable. 07:17.233 --> 07:19.266 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Karen Harned, do you expect much change? 07:19.266 --> 07:24.100 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% KAREN HARNED: I think that the court will remain very committed to protecting the separation 07:26.133 --> 07:29.466 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% of powers between the branches of government, and also ensuring that statutes and constitutions 07:30.933 --> 07:32.733 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% are followed by those that are tasked with doing so. 07:32.733 --> 07:34.633 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: And this assumes he is confirmed. 07:34.633 --> 07:38.066 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% And, again, confirmation hearings get under way next Tuesday. 07:38.066 --> 07:40.033 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% Karen Harned, Daniel Goldberg, thank you both. 07:40.033 --> 07:41.100 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% KAREN HARNED: Thank you.