1 00:00:02,033 --> 00:00:05,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: The past couple of weeks are showing once again just how tough the news 2 00:00:05,066 --> 00:00:10,066 business is right now, with layoffs by digital upstarts and by the country's largest newspaper 3 00:00:10,666 --> 00:00:12,666 chain, Gannett. 4 00:00:12,666 --> 00:00:17,200 BuzzFeed laid off 15 percent of its staff, while The Huffington Post and Yahoo News cut 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,766 hundreds of jobs under their new owner, Verizon. 6 00:00:20,766 --> 00:00:25,766 Many in the field are more worried that a hedge fund-backed group known for gutting 7 00:00:25,766 --> 00:00:28,500 newsrooms might buy Gannett. 8 00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:33,500 That would potentially be an even bigger hit to local coverage nationwide. 9 00:00:35,533 --> 00:00:38,633 All of this has led to the growth of so-called news deserts, places where there's limited 10 00:00:38,633 --> 00:00:40,700 access to news outlets. 11 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:44,233 For a look at the fallout from all this, we're joined now by Steve Cavendish. 12 00:00:44,233 --> 00:00:46,266 He's editor of The Nashville Banner. 13 00:00:46,266 --> 00:00:51,033 That's a nonprofit news start-up that he's in the process of relaunching after the paper 14 00:00:51,933 --> 00:00:55,200 by the same name folded in 1998. 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,900 And Penny Abernathy of the University of North Carolina, she's written a major report about 16 00:00:59,900 --> 00:01:04,866 the shrinking of local news organizations and how it increases our country's political 17 00:01:05,466 --> 00:01:06,533 polarization. 18 00:01:06,533 --> 00:01:08,233 Welcome to both of you. 19 00:01:08,233 --> 00:01:09,433 Thank you for joining us. 20 00:01:09,433 --> 00:01:11,533 Steve Cavendish, I'm going to start with you. 21 00:01:11,533 --> 00:01:16,533 You wrote the other day that what's going on right now for journalists is a bloodbath. 22 00:01:17,333 --> 00:01:19,366 Is it really that bad? 23 00:01:19,366 --> 00:01:23,333 STEVE CAVENDISH, Editor, The Nashville Banner: Well, it has been over a long period of time. 24 00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:28,333 It's over the last -- over the last couple of decades, we have seen journalism jobs around 25 00:01:30,333 --> 00:01:33,433 the country being cleaved off at a rate like either coal miners or steelworkers or fishermen. 26 00:01:39,733 --> 00:01:43,333 And those are not what you would call thriving industries. 27 00:01:43,333 --> 00:01:48,300 Journalism has had revenue problems for years, and we're starting to see, as print is really 28 00:01:50,333 --> 00:01:54,733 sort of -- is sort of wiped out, that the conversion over to digital for many of these 29 00:01:56,133 --> 00:01:59,633 properties, many of these newspapers just isn't the same. 30 00:01:59,633 --> 00:02:02,300 And so we're seeing with it a lot of jobs lost. 31 00:02:02,300 --> 00:02:06,166 JUDY WOODRUFF: Penny Abernathy, you agree it's that bad, and, if so, what's driving 32 00:02:06,166 --> 00:02:08,266 this? 33 00:02:08,266 --> 00:02:08,933 PENNY ABERNATHY, University of North Carolina: Well, I think there are two things we need 34 00:02:08,933 --> 00:02:10,900 to look at. 35 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:14,900 One is the total loss of newspapers, because newspapers are often the prime, if not the 36 00:02:16,733 --> 00:02:20,300 sole source of news and information, especially in small and mid-sized communities. 37 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:25,300 So, over the last decade-and-a-half, we have seen 1,800 newspapers disappear off the landscape 38 00:02:26,333 --> 00:02:28,366 of the U.S. 39 00:02:28,366 --> 00:02:32,566 But there's also the equally troubling situation that we have with the surviving newspapers, 40 00:02:32,566 --> 00:02:37,566 where we have lost more than half of the newspaper newsroom journalists that we had just in 2008. 41 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,000 We're calling that the rise of the ghost newspaper, in which papers are basically shells of their 42 00:02:46,466 --> 00:02:48,100 former selves. 43 00:02:48,100 --> 00:02:51,700 And, as Steve suggests, it's being driven by a couple of things. 44 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:56,666 One is the rapid decline of advertising, especially print advertising, and the inability of news 45 00:02:58,866 --> 00:03:03,833 organizations to make up for that in any kind of digital revenue, be that subscription revenue, 46 00:03:04,866 --> 00:03:07,000 be that advertising revenue. 47 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: Steve Cavendish, a lot of conversation about the role of these organizations that 48 00:03:12,433 --> 00:03:16,166 have become so powerful over the last decade, Facebook, Google. 49 00:03:16,166 --> 00:03:18,166 What is their role in all this? 50 00:03:18,166 --> 00:03:22,833 STEVE CAVENDISH: Well, as newspapers have tried to become digital operations, and tried 51 00:03:25,266 --> 00:03:29,633 to sell digital advertising, the problem is that they get into these markets, and Google 52 00:03:29,633 --> 00:03:34,266 and Facebook have, between the two of them, about 80 percent of the digital ad market. 53 00:03:34,266 --> 00:03:39,266 And so what's left pushes -- really pushes down on what they can make as -- what you 54 00:03:40,666 --> 00:03:42,700 can make as an organization. 55 00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:47,700 And so the print dollars that many news chains have walked away from have been replaced by 56 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,400 digital dimes or even digital pennies. 57 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,866 And that replacement is reflected in the number of jobs that have been lost. 58 00:03:54,866 --> 00:03:58,766 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Penny Abernathy, what does that mean for news consumers, people 59 00:03:58,766 --> 00:04:03,733 who have counted on whether it's a newspaper or something else for news and information? 60 00:04:05,733 --> 00:04:08,766 PENNY ABERNATHY: Well, it means the rise of news deserts, in which residents in communities, 61 00:04:10,733 --> 00:04:14,066 hundreds of communities, even thousands, in this country have limited, very limited access 62 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:19,400 to the sort of news and information that's been the lifeblood of our democracy, everything 63 00:04:21,466 --> 00:04:24,866 from when and where to vote, to topics such as education, health, emergency and safety 64 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,300 information that we need. 65 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:33,966 The FCC put out in -- earlier in this decade a list of eight topics that they considered 66 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:39,333 to be critical information needs for communities. 67 00:04:39,333 --> 00:04:44,333 As we have looked at newspapers and the content that comes out of newspapers, as well as digital 68 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,433 start-up sites, we often find that some essential information that we need as citizens and just 69 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,900 residents to make wise decisions, we don't have access to anymore. 70 00:04:56,833 --> 00:04:59,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Steve Cavendish, how do you see that playing out in Tennessee? 71 00:04:59,066 --> 00:05:01,166 What are people missing now? 72 00:05:01,166 --> 00:05:05,000 STEVE CAVENDISH: Well, so, take for example, The Nashville Banner, which was the afternoon 73 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,000 paper here and where I got my start in the early '90s, was sold to the Gannett paper 74 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:13,166 here in town, The Tennessean, and closed. 75 00:05:13,166 --> 00:05:17,633 Well, they took about a third of that newsroom into and combined it into The Tennessean's 76 00:05:17,633 --> 00:05:18,633 staff. 77 00:05:18,633 --> 00:05:20,800 So you had about 180 journalists. 78 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,833 That number is now less than 70. 79 00:05:23,833 --> 00:05:25,933 And what does that mean? 80 00:05:25,933 --> 00:05:30,100 It means that, you know, large swathes of what was once covered, of courts, of institutions, 81 00:05:34,666 --> 00:05:38,133 of major kind of stories just don't get covered. 82 00:05:38,133 --> 00:05:43,133 And it affects everything, from the cover of health care, which is a big industry here, 83 00:05:44,233 --> 00:05:47,366 to high school sports, to politics. 84 00:05:47,366 --> 00:05:52,366 In the last set of elections where you had a -- we had a Senate and governor's race here 85 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,000 back in the fall, you had basically one reporter covering those races each for Gannett-owned 86 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,733 dailies in three of the four biggest markets in Tennessee. 87 00:06:06,733 --> 00:06:10,200 And so you're seeing fewer and fewer people covering things. 88 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,833 The statehouse reporting is kind of a crisis across the country. 89 00:06:14,833 --> 00:06:19,833 In Tennessee, there were 35 people covering the state legislature and the government, 90 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,000 state government, at one time about three decades ago. 91 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,166 That number is now 10, and, really, a couple of those are specialists. 92 00:06:27,166 --> 00:06:32,166 So you only have eight people covering a $37 billion -- a $37 billion state government 93 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,233 and the legislature. 94 00:06:35,233 --> 00:06:37,766 JUDY WOODRUFF: And we have seen that in state after state. 95 00:06:37,766 --> 00:06:41,400 And, Penny Abernathy, it's so important for us to highlight this, because, here in Washington, 96 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,733 you look at, say, a presidential news conference, and you see a lot of journalists. 97 00:06:44,733 --> 00:06:48,933 You don't get the sense, looking at Washington, what has happened around the country. 98 00:06:48,933 --> 00:06:50,900 PENNY ABERNATHY: Right. 99 00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:52,966 JUDY WOODRUFF: But I want to ask you something you have pointed out. 100 00:06:52,966 --> 00:06:56,433 And that's how all this contributes to the political polarization in the country. 101 00:06:57,166 --> 00:06:59,233 How is that happening? 102 00:06:59,233 --> 00:07:02,633 PENNY ABERNATHY: Well, one of the things that we found through our study of looking at where 103 00:07:02,633 --> 00:07:07,633 people -- communities have lost newspapers and where they are living with severely diminished 104 00:07:09,566 --> 00:07:14,566 newspapers is that it tends to -- news deserts tend to coalesce around areas that are much 105 00:07:18,033 --> 00:07:23,033 poorer, much less well-educated, and much older than other types of communities. 106 00:07:24,933 --> 00:07:29,366 That can be communities that are middle -- inner-city neighborhoods. 107 00:07:30,566 --> 00:07:32,666 That can be suburbs around metro areas. 108 00:07:32,666 --> 00:07:37,666 And it can be what we call the flyover regions of the country, the rural areas that are out 109 00:07:38,133 --> 00:07:40,600 there. 110 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,366 I live in a -- what you would call a news desert, the Congressional 9th, where we still 111 00:07:43,366 --> 00:07:48,366 do not have a House of Representatives member because of alleged voter fraud. 112 00:07:50,766 --> 00:07:55,766 It is -- and it is a classic news desert, where, in 20 years ago or so, you could have 113 00:07:57,666 --> 00:08:01,266 gotten ample coverage of the congressional race through three different newspapers, the 114 00:08:03,266 --> 00:08:07,000 Charlotte, the Raleigh and the Fayetteville paper, and it is -- there are no newspapers 115 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,566 that circulate in my county now. 116 00:08:09,566 --> 00:08:13,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: What determines, quickly, Penny Abernathy, whether this is going to turn around 117 00:08:13,633 --> 00:08:15,666 anytime soon? 118 00:08:15,666 --> 00:08:19,366 PENNY ABERNATHY: Well, I'm most optimistic that if you have a publisher and an owner 119 00:08:19,366 --> 00:08:24,366 in an area that has a good economic foundation, that if the publisher is both creative and 120 00:08:28,033 --> 00:08:29,833 disciplined, that you can turn it around. 121 00:08:29,833 --> 00:08:32,100 We have seen several examples of that. 122 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:37,100 Where I am most concerned is on the low-income areas, which I do not see a viable for-profit 123 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,166 economic model emerging. 124 00:08:40,166 --> 00:08:45,100 And I'm hoping we can begin to get media funders to begin to look at these overlooked areas, 125 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,066 because it's critical for our society. 126 00:08:49,066 --> 00:08:52,433 It has political, social and economic implications that are long-term. 127 00:08:52,433 --> 00:08:56,866 JUDY WOODRUFF: So important to focus on this. 128 00:08:56,866 --> 00:08:59,066 Penny Abernathy, Steve Cavendish, thank you both. 129 00:08:59,066 --> 00:09:00,333 STEVE CAVENDISH: Thanks, Judy. 130 00:09:00,333 --> 00:09:01,500 PENNY ABERNATHY: Thank you.