WEBVTT 00:02.033 --> 00:05.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: The past couple of weeks are showing once again just how tough the news 00:05.066 --> 00:10.066 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% business is right now, with layoffs by digital upstarts and by the country's largest newspaper 00:10.666 --> 00:12.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% chain, Gannett. 00:12.666 --> 00:17.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% BuzzFeed laid off 15 percent of its staff, while The Huffington Post and Yahoo News cut 00:18.600 --> 00:20.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% hundreds of jobs under their new owner, Verizon. 00:20.766 --> 00:25.766 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Many in the field are more worried that a hedge fund-backed group known for gutting 00:25.766 --> 00:28.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% newsrooms might buy Gannett. 00:28.500 --> 00:33.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% That would potentially be an even bigger hit to local coverage nationwide. 00:35.533 --> 00:38.633 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% All of this has led to the growth of so-called news deserts, places where there's limited 00:38.633 --> 00:40.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% access to news outlets. 00:40.700 --> 00:44.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% For a look at the fallout from all this, we're joined now by Steve Cavendish. 00:44.233 --> 00:46.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's editor of The Nashville Banner. 00:46.266 --> 00:51.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% That's a nonprofit news start-up that he's in the process of relaunching after the paper 00:51.933 --> 00:55.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% by the same name folded in 1998. 00:55.200 --> 00:59.900 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% And Penny Abernathy of the University of North Carolina, she's written a major report about 00:59.900 --> 01:04.866 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% the shrinking of local news organizations and how it increases our country's political 01:05.466 --> 01:06.533 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% polarization. 01:06.533 --> 01:08.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Welcome to both of you. 01:08.233 --> 01:09.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Thank you for joining us. 01:09.433 --> 01:11.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Steve Cavendish, I'm going to start with you. 01:11.533 --> 01:16.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% You wrote the other day that what's going on right now for journalists is a bloodbath. 01:17.333 --> 01:19.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Is it really that bad? 01:19.366 --> 01:23.333 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% STEVE CAVENDISH, Editor, The Nashville Banner: Well, it has been over a long period of time. 01:25.300 --> 01:28.333 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% It's over the last -- over the last couple of decades, we have seen journalism jobs around 01:30.333 --> 01:33.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the country being cleaved off at a rate like either coal miners or steelworkers or fishermen. 01:39.733 --> 01:43.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And those are not what you would call thriving industries. 01:43.333 --> 01:48.300 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% Journalism has had revenue problems for years, and we're starting to see, as print is really 01:50.333 --> 01:54.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% sort of -- is sort of wiped out, that the conversion over to digital for many of these 01:56.133 --> 01:59.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% properties, many of these newspapers just isn't the same. 01:59.633 --> 02:02.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so we're seeing with it a lot of jobs lost. 02:02.300 --> 02:06.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Penny Abernathy, you agree it's that bad, and, if so, what's driving 02:06.166 --> 02:08.266 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% this? 02:08.266 --> 02:08.933 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% PENNY ABERNATHY, University of North Carolina: Well, I think there are two things we need 02:08.933 --> 02:10.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% to look at. 02:10.900 --> 02:14.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% One is the total loss of newspapers, because newspapers are often the prime, if not the 02:16.733 --> 02:20.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% sole source of news and information, especially in small and mid-sized communities. 02:20.300 --> 02:25.300 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% So, over the last decade-and-a-half, we have seen 1,800 newspapers disappear off the landscape 02:26.333 --> 02:28.366 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% of the U.S. 02:28.366 --> 02:32.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% But there's also the equally troubling situation that we have with the surviving newspapers, 02:32.566 --> 02:37.566 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% where we have lost more than half of the newspaper newsroom journalists that we had just in 2008. 02:40.000 --> 02:45.000 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% We're calling that the rise of the ghost newspaper, in which papers are basically shells of their 02:46.466 --> 02:48.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% former selves. 02:48.100 --> 02:51.700 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% And, as Steve suggests, it's being driven by a couple of things. 02:51.700 --> 02:56.666 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% One is the rapid decline of advertising, especially print advertising, and the inability of news 02:58.866 --> 03:03.833 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% organizations to make up for that in any kind of digital revenue, be that subscription revenue, 03:04.866 --> 03:07.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% be that advertising revenue. 03:07.000 --> 03:11.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Steve Cavendish, a lot of conversation about the role of these organizations that 03:12.433 --> 03:16.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% have become so powerful over the last decade, Facebook, Google. 03:16.166 --> 03:18.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What is their role in all this? 03:18.166 --> 03:22.833 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% STEVE CAVENDISH: Well, as newspapers have tried to become digital operations, and tried 03:25.266 --> 03:29.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% to sell digital advertising, the problem is that they get into these markets, and Google 03:29.633 --> 03:34.266 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% and Facebook have, between the two of them, about 80 percent of the digital ad market. 03:34.266 --> 03:39.266 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And so what's left pushes -- really pushes down on what they can make as -- what you 03:40.666 --> 03:42.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% can make as an organization. 03:42.700 --> 03:47.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And so the print dollars that many news chains have walked away from have been replaced by 03:48.800 --> 03:51.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% digital dimes or even digital pennies. 03:51.400 --> 03:54.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And that replacement is reflected in the number of jobs that have been lost. 03:54.866 --> 03:58.766 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Penny Abernathy, what does that mean for news consumers, people 03:58.766 --> 04:03.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% who have counted on whether it's a newspaper or something else for news and information? 04:05.733 --> 04:08.766 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% PENNY ABERNATHY: Well, it means the rise of news deserts, in which residents in communities, 04:10.733 --> 04:14.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% hundreds of communities, even thousands, in this country have limited, very limited access 04:16.100 --> 04:19.400 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% to the sort of news and information that's been the lifeblood of our democracy, everything 04:21.466 --> 04:24.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% from when and where to vote, to topics such as education, health, emergency and safety 04:27.200 --> 04:29.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% information that we need. 04:29.300 --> 04:33.966 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% The FCC put out in -- earlier in this decade a list of eight topics that they considered 04:36.100 --> 04:39.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to be critical information needs for communities. 04:39.333 --> 04:44.333 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% As we have looked at newspapers and the content that comes out of newspapers, as well as digital 04:46.400 --> 04:49.433 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% start-up sites, we often find that some essential information that we need as citizens and just 04:51.000 --> 04:54.900 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% residents to make wise decisions, we don't have access to anymore. 04:56.833 --> 04:59.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Steve Cavendish, how do you see that playing out in Tennessee? 04:59.066 --> 05:01.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What are people missing now? 05:01.166 --> 05:05.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% STEVE CAVENDISH: Well, so, take for example, The Nashville Banner, which was the afternoon 05:05.000 --> 05:10.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% paper here and where I got my start in the early '90s, was sold to the Gannett paper 05:11.100 --> 05:13.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% here in town, The Tennessean, and closed. 05:13.166 --> 05:17.633 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% Well, they took about a third of that newsroom into and combined it into The Tennessean's 05:17.633 --> 05:18.633 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% staff. 05:18.633 --> 05:20.800 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% So you had about 180 journalists. 05:20.800 --> 05:23.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% That number is now less than 70. 05:23.833 --> 05:25.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% And what does that mean? 05:25.933 --> 05:30.100 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% It means that, you know, large swathes of what was once covered, of courts, of institutions, 05:34.666 --> 05:38.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of major kind of stories just don't get covered. 05:38.133 --> 05:43.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And it affects everything, from the cover of health care, which is a big industry here, 05:44.233 --> 05:47.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to high school sports, to politics. 05:47.366 --> 05:52.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% In the last set of elections where you had a -- we had a Senate and governor's race here 05:54.800 --> 05:58.000 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% back in the fall, you had basically one reporter covering those races each for Gannett-owned 06:03.400 --> 06:06.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% dailies in three of the four biggest markets in Tennessee. 06:06.733 --> 06:10.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And so you're seeing fewer and fewer people covering things. 06:10.200 --> 06:14.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The statehouse reporting is kind of a crisis across the country. 06:14.833 --> 06:19.833 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% In Tennessee, there were 35 people covering the state legislature and the government, 06:21.200 --> 06:24.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% state government, at one time about three decades ago. 06:24.000 --> 06:27.166 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% That number is now 10, and, really, a couple of those are specialists. 06:27.166 --> 06:32.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% So you only have eight people covering a $37 billion -- a $37 billion state government 06:33.800 --> 06:35.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and the legislature. 06:35.233 --> 06:37.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And we have seen that in state after state. 06:37.766 --> 06:41.400 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% And, Penny Abernathy, it's so important for us to highlight this, because, here in Washington, 06:41.400 --> 06:44.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% you look at, say, a presidential news conference, and you see a lot of journalists. 06:44.733 --> 06:48.933 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% You don't get the sense, looking at Washington, what has happened around the country. 06:48.933 --> 06:50.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% PENNY ABERNATHY: Right. 06:50.900 --> 06:52.966 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: But I want to ask you something you have pointed out. 06:52.966 --> 06:56.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And that's how all this contributes to the political polarization in the country. 06:57.166 --> 06:59.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% How is that happening? 06:59.233 --> 07:02.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% PENNY ABERNATHY: Well, one of the things that we found through our study of looking at where 07:02.633 --> 07:07.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% people -- communities have lost newspapers and where they are living with severely diminished 07:09.566 --> 07:14.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% newspapers is that it tends to -- news deserts tend to coalesce around areas that are much 07:18.033 --> 07:23.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% poorer, much less well-educated, and much older than other types of communities. 07:24.933 --> 07:29.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% That can be communities that are middle -- inner-city neighborhoods. 07:30.566 --> 07:32.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That can be suburbs around metro areas. 07:32.666 --> 07:37.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And it can be what we call the flyover regions of the country, the rural areas that are out 07:38.133 --> 07:40.600 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% there. 07:40.600 --> 07:43.366 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% I live in a -- what you would call a news desert, the Congressional 9th, where we still 07:43.366 --> 07:48.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% do not have a House of Representatives member because of alleged voter fraud. 07:50.766 --> 07:55.766 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% It is -- and it is a classic news desert, where, in 20 years ago or so, you could have 07:57.666 --> 08:01.266 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% gotten ample coverage of the congressional race through three different newspapers, the 08:03.266 --> 08:07.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Charlotte, the Raleigh and the Fayetteville paper, and it is -- there are no newspapers 08:07.000 --> 08:09.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that circulate in my county now. 08:09.566 --> 08:13.633 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: What determines, quickly, Penny Abernathy, whether this is going to turn around 08:13.633 --> 08:15.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% anytime soon? 08:15.666 --> 08:19.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% PENNY ABERNATHY: Well, I'm most optimistic that if you have a publisher and an owner 08:19.366 --> 08:24.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% in an area that has a good economic foundation, that if the publisher is both creative and 08:28.033 --> 08:29.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% disciplined, that you can turn it around. 08:29.833 --> 08:32.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We have seen several examples of that. 08:32.100 --> 08:37.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Where I am most concerned is on the low-income areas, which I do not see a viable for-profit 08:38.100 --> 08:40.166 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% economic model emerging. 08:40.166 --> 08:45.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And I'm hoping we can begin to get media funders to begin to look at these overlooked areas, 08:46.200 --> 08:49.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because it's critical for our society. 08:49.066 --> 08:52.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% It has political, social and economic implications that are long-term. 08:52.433 --> 08:56.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: So important to focus on this. 08:56.866 --> 08:59.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Penny Abernathy, Steve Cavendish, thank you both. 08:59.066 --> 09:00.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% STEVE CAVENDISH: Thanks, Judy. 09:00.333 --> 09:01.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% PENNY ABERNATHY: Thank you.