1 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:04,733 AMNA NAWAZ: We're now nearly a week on from the two tragedies in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, 2 00:00:04,733 --> 00:00:06,866 Ohio. 3 00:00:06,866 --> 00:00:09,366 But the grave questions that have been raised in the aftermath remain, and likely will remain 4 00:00:09,366 --> 00:00:11,333 for some time. 5 00:00:11,333 --> 00:00:15,433 How, if at all, will American politics and American society respond? 6 00:00:15,433 --> 00:00:17,600 That brings us to Brooks and Capehart. 7 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,400 That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart. 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,033 Mark Shields is away this week. 9 00:00:24,033 --> 00:00:25,066 Welcome to you both. 10 00:00:25,066 --> 00:00:26,266 Thanks for being here. 11 00:00:26,266 --> 00:00:28,200 Let's jump into the big topic for this week. 12 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,600 Obviously, gun violence was a big topic of conversation. 13 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,600 I want to go right to a poll. 14 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,800 We heard President Trump mention earlier today that Leader McConnell is totally on board 15 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,333 with background checks. 16 00:00:37,333 --> 00:00:39,233 That would bring him in line with the rest of the country. 17 00:00:39,233 --> 00:00:43,000 This is broken down by party support for universal background checks. 18 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,200 The floor there, David Brooks, is 84 percent for Republicans. 19 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,466 Do you see this as the moment that this legislation passes? 20 00:00:50,466 --> 00:00:53,833 DAVID BROOKS: Well, of course, logically, you want to say yes, but we have been here 21 00:00:53,833 --> 00:00:57,200 so many times since Newtown and all -- Parkland and all the shootings, that we haven't quite 22 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,266 got there. 23 00:00:59,266 --> 00:01:01,800 And so how can something with that kind of support even among Republicans not pass? 24 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,800 First, the NRA has a zero compromise policy, that we won't accept any compromise at all. 25 00:01:07,666 --> 00:01:09,366 We're just holding the line. 26 00:01:09,366 --> 00:01:11,600 And so far, for 20 or 30 years, that has sort of been working for them. 27 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,400 Second, it's low salient issue. 28 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,600 People care about guns on the week after something like this happens. 29 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,900 And then you ask them, rank the issues you care about, guns start dropping down. 30 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:25,666 And then the third, it's turned into a culture war, where, for a lot of people, it's not 31 00:01:25,666 --> 00:01:27,066 about guns at all. 32 00:01:27,066 --> 00:01:29,166 It's about my culture vs. your culture. 33 00:01:29,166 --> 00:01:32,600 And if you want to control my guns, which are part of my gun clubs, part of my community, 34 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,066 you're just a bunch of coastal elites coming after me. 35 00:01:35,066 --> 00:01:39,333 And so I hope this is a week when that changes, but we have a right to be a little skeptical. 36 00:01:39,333 --> 00:01:42,933 And the one opportunity -- and this is a perverse way to put it -- is that we might not have 37 00:01:42,933 --> 00:01:46,466 - - we might have the same gun debate over and over again, but what's become new this 38 00:01:46,466 --> 00:01:51,433 week is, it's a terrorism issue as well, in that the people, especially in El Paso, but 39 00:01:53,366 --> 00:01:55,933 in a lot of these other shootings, they are killing on behalf of an ideology that is a 40 00:01:55,933 --> 00:01:58,666 little like the ISIS ideology in some ways. 41 00:01:58,666 --> 00:02:03,066 And we could -- if we had a discussion, what do we do to combat domestic terrorism, that, 42 00:02:03,066 --> 00:02:06,066 we might be able to have a different kind of conversation and pass some of the things 43 00:02:06,066 --> 00:02:07,566 we couldn't pass any other way. 44 00:02:07,566 --> 00:02:09,700 AMNA NAWAZ: The threat might be different there, you think. 45 00:02:09,700 --> 00:02:12,966 DAVID BROOKS: You might rearrange the political alliances, because the gun issue, people are 46 00:02:12,966 --> 00:02:14,166 pretty baked in. 47 00:02:14,166 --> 00:02:15,600 AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, what do you think? 48 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,133 I mean, we do have this conversation again and again. 49 00:02:17,133 --> 00:02:19,633 It's usually right after one of these mass public events. 50 00:02:19,633 --> 00:02:23,800 You remember, back in 2012, after kindergartners were murdered... 51 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,266 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes. 52 00:02:25,266 --> 00:02:26,066 AMNA NAWAZ: ... we thought, OK, this is the moment. 53 00:02:26,066 --> 00:02:27,000 And then it wasn't. 54 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,400 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. 55 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,800 If the slaughter of 20 children in their elementary school wasn't enough to move the Senate, to 56 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:40,166 move the U.S. Congress to pass even just background checks -- it failed by six votes -- then nothing 57 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:44,333 will move them. 58 00:02:44,333 --> 00:02:48,833 To David's point about, a week we will be talking about, we will move on, but I think 59 00:02:51,366 --> 00:02:54,733 the momentum in this case will dissipate greatly because the president just left for vacation. 60 00:02:56,333 --> 00:02:59,800 Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is already on vacation. 61 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,533 He's already said the Senate's not coming back. 62 00:03:02,533 --> 00:03:07,200 And so by the time they come back in September, God forbid we're not talking about another 63 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,200 mass shooting, but it might not be until another mass shooting that you get the kind of energy 64 00:03:13,766 --> 00:03:17,133 and momentum that's needed to push such a heavy rock up the hill. 65 00:03:17,133 --> 00:03:20,133 AMNA NAWAZ: Do you think if they face -- members of Congress are in their home districts. 66 00:03:20,133 --> 00:03:23,300 If they're getting questions about it, that could help add to some momentum? 67 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:28,300 JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, look, again, going back to Newtown, the national outrage over 68 00:03:30,133 --> 00:03:34,066 what happened wasn't enough to blunt the power of the NRA. 69 00:03:34,066 --> 00:03:39,066 So I don't know how much a town hall is going to -- or successive town halls will be to 70 00:03:40,166 --> 00:03:41,600 change the momentum. 71 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,666 DAVID BROOKS: The cultural issue cannot be underestimated. 72 00:03:43,666 --> 00:03:48,433 I have always loved Mayor Bloomberg, but it wasn't good for the gun issue that the guy 73 00:03:50,433 --> 00:03:52,100 spending all the money around the country and becoming a spokesperson for the movement 74 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:54,500 was the mayor of New York City. 75 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:59,000 This has to be led by a group of red state people who are rock-ribbed Republicans who 76 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,433 say, I'm very Republican, I love to shoot, guns are part of my culture, but we got to 77 00:04:03,433 --> 00:04:05,466 change. 78 00:04:05,466 --> 00:04:06,933 And until you can get red state leaders doing that, it's going to be a tougher issue. 79 00:04:06,933 --> 00:04:08,800 AMNA NAWAZ: Let me ask you about something else. 80 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,000 The president did, obviously, make a visit to those affected communities. 81 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,833 And his team put out what's basically a highly produced edited video of his visit on the 82 00:04:16,833 --> 00:04:18,433 ground in El Paso. 83 00:04:18,433 --> 00:04:21,133 You're watching a clip of it right there. 84 00:04:21,133 --> 00:04:25,266 There was a contrast there between some of the reports we heard on the ground from journalists 85 00:04:25,266 --> 00:04:26,733 and then another video. 86 00:04:26,733 --> 00:04:29,133 It was cell phone video that emerged after the visit. 87 00:04:29,133 --> 00:04:33,766 It showed the president on the ground in El Paso talking about his crowd size at a rally 88 00:04:33,766 --> 00:04:36,600 back in February and comparing it to Beto O'Rourke's. 89 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,233 Take a quick listen to what he said. 90 00:04:38,233 --> 00:04:40,200 DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: That was some crowd. 91 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,700 WOMAN: Thank you. 92 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:42,900 DONALD TRUMP: And we had twice the number outside. 93 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:45,233 And then you had this crazy Beto. 94 00:04:45,233 --> 00:04:48,200 Beto had like 400 people in a parking lot. 95 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,900 They said his crowd was wonderful. 96 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:53,000 AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, there is kind of a tale of two narratives there. 97 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,766 In the moment, you don't really know which one to pay attention to. 98 00:04:55,766 --> 00:05:00,400 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, the narrative here is consistent. 99 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,366 President Trump is at the center of that narrative, whether it's that highly produced campaign-style-like 100 00:05:07,366 --> 00:05:10,900 video of his visits to El Paso Dayton, or it's that cell phone video where he's talking 101 00:05:12,866 --> 00:05:16,266 about one of the things that is part of his greatest hits, crowd size. 102 00:05:16,266 --> 00:05:19,933 He has talked about crowd size since the day of his inauguration. 103 00:05:19,933 --> 00:05:23,333 And, for him, that is a marker of popularity. 104 00:05:23,333 --> 00:05:28,333 But, in that moment, what I would expect the people of El Paso and Dayton, the people in 105 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,400 Ohio, the American people who are grieving - - and also Texas -- people who are grieving, 106 00:05:37,833 --> 00:05:42,833 what they want to see from a president is comfort. 107 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:45,833 They want to see someone consoling them. 108 00:05:45,833 --> 00:05:48,733 I was in New York on 9/11. 109 00:05:48,733 --> 00:05:53,566 And President George W. Bush was president of the United States, and I had lots of disagreements 110 00:05:53,566 --> 00:05:56,600 with the policies of President George W. Bush. 111 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,600 But when he stood on that rubble at ground zero and talked to those workers, and talked 112 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,100 to the city, and talked to the nation, that's exactly what we needed to hear then. 113 00:06:09,133 --> 00:06:12,533 When President Obama went to Charleston and impromptu sang "Amazing Grace" at the eulogy 114 00:06:16,633 --> 00:06:20,800 for Clementa Pinckney, a state senator who was murdered with eight other people in Mother 115 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,800 Emanuel Church, in that moment, he channeled the grief of a church, of a city, of a community, 116 00:06:30,533 --> 00:06:32,800 and of a nation. 117 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,166 We didn't get that with President Trump. 118 00:06:35,166 --> 00:06:37,600 AMNA NAWAZ: David, how do you look at this, really? 119 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,300 He's such a divisive figure anyway. 120 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:42,200 There is the standard of the consoler in chief. 121 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:43,200 He hasn't done it yet. 122 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,333 It's not who he is. 123 00:06:44,333 --> 00:06:45,333 Right? 124 00:06:45,333 --> 00:06:47,400 DAVID BROOKS: Yes. 125 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,200 Well, there's a photo, a still from that visit where he's with the orphan baby and two family 126 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,400 members, with his wife. 127 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:51,700 And Melania is holding the child. 128 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:53,666 And he's got this grin and the thumb up. 129 00:06:53,666 --> 00:06:57,433 And when I looked at that photo, I thought, the Democrats are having a debate: Is he a 130 00:06:57,433 --> 00:06:58,433 racist? 131 00:06:58,433 --> 00:06:59,933 Is he a white supremacist? 132 00:06:59,933 --> 00:07:02,166 And I look at that photo, I think, well, he's a sociopath. 133 00:07:02,166 --> 00:07:05,066 He's incapable of experiencing or showing empathy. 134 00:07:05,066 --> 00:07:09,866 And, politically, it's helpful for him to target that lack of empathy and fellow feeling 135 00:07:09,866 --> 00:07:11,666 toward people of color. 136 00:07:11,666 --> 00:07:15,466 But how much have we seen him show empathy for anybody? 137 00:07:15,466 --> 00:07:20,466 And so I look at that as someone who is unloved and made himself unlovable and whose subject 138 00:07:21,666 --> 00:07:23,800 is himself, is his own competitive greatness. 139 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,833 And so he doesn't do the consoler in chief just because he doesn't do that emotional 140 00:07:26,833 --> 00:07:28,200 range. 141 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,700 And that's a burden and a cost for any of us. 142 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:34,933 AMNA NAWAZ: You mentioned the white supremacy line there. 143 00:07:34,933 --> 00:07:39,133 We have obviously been talking about that a lot in 2019 now. 144 00:07:39,133 --> 00:07:44,066 And Lisa Desjardins was reporting earlier too on the ground in Iowa there. 145 00:07:44,066 --> 00:07:49,066 Candidates are being asked about that: Do you think this president is a white supremacist? 146 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:53,433 Is that sort of a litmus test now for candidates moving forward? 147 00:07:53,433 --> 00:07:56,666 DAVID BROOKS: It's an easy emotional inflation, it seems to me. 148 00:07:56,666 --> 00:08:00,733 I thought Biden's answer and Kamala Harris' was pretty good, which is, I don't know, but 149 00:08:00,733 --> 00:08:02,033 he's certainly enabling them. 150 00:08:02,033 --> 00:08:04,233 And he's certainly speaking the language. 151 00:08:04,233 --> 00:08:06,666 He uses the language of invasion when talking about immigration. 152 00:08:06,666 --> 00:08:10,366 Now, I read a lot of the manifestos this week and those who have actually killed in Christchurch, 153 00:08:10,366 --> 00:08:12,133 New Zealand, and El Paso. 154 00:08:12,133 --> 00:08:13,133 They start with invasion. 155 00:08:13,133 --> 00:08:14,700 They go many more steps. 156 00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:17,733 They believe that racial mixing really is a cancer. 157 00:08:17,733 --> 00:08:20,400 And they have this deep separatism. 158 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,466 I don't know if Trump has that. 159 00:08:22,466 --> 00:08:25,966 But he has certainly set an atmosphere where it's easier to talk about human beings as 160 00:08:25,966 --> 00:08:27,466 an invasion. 161 00:08:27,466 --> 00:08:29,300 AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of all this right now, Jonathan? 162 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:30,300 It's a big topic. 163 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:31,800 This is nothing new in America. 164 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,333 And yet it's new in terms of how prevalent it is. 165 00:08:34,333 --> 00:08:39,333 JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right, because -- and it pains me to say this, but we're talking about 166 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:44,666 it because the president of the United States is a racist with a white supremacist policy 167 00:08:46,366 --> 00:08:48,433 agenda. 168 00:08:48,433 --> 00:08:52,700 He began his political career questioning the legitimacy of the first African-American 169 00:08:53,333 --> 00:08:55,400 president. 170 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,033 He started his campaign within the first two minutes saying that Mexicans were -- quote 171 00:08:59,033 --> 00:09:01,166 - - "rapists." 172 00:09:01,166 --> 00:09:05,666 He called for a complete and total ban on Muslims entering the United States after the 173 00:09:05,666 --> 00:09:10,666 San Bernardino attack during the campaign in December 2016. 174 00:09:13,566 --> 00:09:18,566 He's used words on the campaign trail from the midterm elections and continued, invasion, 175 00:09:22,766 --> 00:09:27,766 caravans, infestation, animals, to what David was talking about. 176 00:09:29,766 --> 00:09:33,033 In policy and in rhetoric, he is feeding into this environment, this atmosphere, where people 177 00:09:35,133 --> 00:09:40,133 such as the shooter in El Paso who has -- we have seen the affidavit. 178 00:09:42,166 --> 00:09:45,333 He's confessed in doing what he's done, and confessed to targeting -- quote -- "Mexicans." 179 00:09:48,433 --> 00:09:50,700 That -- these things don't happen in a vacuum. 180 00:09:50,700 --> 00:09:54,400 Did the president order this person to do this? 181 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,433 No. 182 00:09:56,433 --> 00:10:00,400 But that person heard in that rhetoric -- and we have seen it from New Zealand, around the 183 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,700 world, but particularly here, where we are dealing with a domestic terrorism problem, 184 00:10:08,666 --> 00:10:11,933 where the primary people committing these terrorist acts are white supremacists. 185 00:10:13,933 --> 00:10:17,100 We're dealing with a situation here where the president of the United States is feeding 186 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:22,100 into it with the rhetoric that's coming out of his mouth, whether it's from a podium at 187 00:10:24,166 --> 00:10:28,366 the White House or from a podium at a campaign rally somewhere in the country. 188 00:10:28,366 --> 00:10:29,800 DAVID BROOKS: Yes. 189 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,700 I hear you talking, and I think I basically agree with it. 190 00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:37,000 Then I -- my next question is, well, how do we then do democracy for the next 16 months? 191 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,133 Like, there is a presumption that we're all Americans together. 192 00:10:40,133 --> 00:10:43,900 There's a presumption of goodwill, that we can have a conversation. 193 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:48,266 And maybe Donald Trump -- but how do we address ourselves to Donald Trump supporters, many 194 00:10:48,266 --> 00:10:51,500 of whom are very realistic and are supporters of him for good reasons having to do with 195 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:54,933 their own lives and the dissolution of their own communities. 196 00:10:54,933 --> 00:10:59,900 It's going to be hard to have a conversation once the president has been declared sort 197 00:11:01,566 --> 00:11:03,466 of really beneath contempt. 198 00:11:03,466 --> 00:11:05,566 And I'm not saying I disagree with you. 199 00:11:05,566 --> 00:11:07,233 I'm just saying this is a problem we have to deal with as we try to have a national 200 00:11:07,233 --> 00:11:08,900 conversation over this election. 201 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:10,600 AMNA NAWAZ: Is there a way -- and we just have a couple minutes left. 202 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:11,900 It's a big question. 203 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:13,866 But, Jonathan, try, if you can. 204 00:11:13,866 --> 00:11:18,266 Is there a way to take politics out of this to explain why these kinds of ideas are so 205 00:11:18,866 --> 00:11:19,800 dangerous? 206 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:20,966 Obviously, they're not new. 207 00:11:20,966 --> 00:11:23,033 They have been around for a while. 208 00:11:23,033 --> 00:11:26,500 They have just been mainstreamed to some degree because they're being spoken from the highest 209 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:28,366 office in the land. 210 00:11:28,366 --> 00:11:32,433 JONATHAN CAPEHART: You know, gosh, we have got a minute or so left? 211 00:11:32,433 --> 00:11:33,433 Thanks. 212 00:11:33,433 --> 00:11:34,433 Thanks for the question. 213 00:11:34,433 --> 00:11:36,500 (LAUGHTER) 214 00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:40,433 JONATHAN CAPEHART: I think what -- there's no way to separate politics from this. 215 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,733 I think Vice President Biden and Senator Cory Booker in speeches on the same day told the 216 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,166 story of America from two different perspectives. 217 00:11:50,166 --> 00:11:54,333 Vice President Biden talked about -- talked about the country and the problems that it 218 00:11:54,333 --> 00:11:57,000 has, about America as an idea. 219 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,766 And Cory Booker -- or Senator Booker talked about the same thing, but coming at it from 220 00:12:00,766 --> 00:12:05,733 the perspective of, America is an idea, but we have deep-seated issues that go right back 221 00:12:07,166 --> 00:12:11,433 to white supremacy being woven into our founding documents. 222 00:12:11,433 --> 00:12:15,666 And we have to -- we have to talk about that, we have to address it, we have to acknowledge 223 00:12:15,666 --> 00:12:17,300 it. 224 00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:18,966 And, once we do that, then we can take the steps to reconciliation. 225 00:12:18,966 --> 00:12:21,533 DAVID BROOKS: And I would say I'm a pluralist. 226 00:12:21,533 --> 00:12:25,200 We're probably all pluralists, who we see good people around like ourselves, cool, like, 227 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,766 let's eat different food, let's meet different people, let's have wide experience. 228 00:12:28,766 --> 00:12:31,800 And a lot of us are conservatives, whether you're on the left or on the right. 229 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,166 But there are a lot of people who are anti-pluralists. 230 00:12:34,166 --> 00:12:38,900 When you present them with something different, they clam up, they shrink in, they become 231 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:40,500 more fearful. 232 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:42,433 Just -- Conor Friedersdorf had a piece in "The Atlantic" today. 233 00:12:42,433 --> 00:12:46,833 And it was about people being interviewed by an African-American interviewer. 234 00:12:46,833 --> 00:12:51,533 And some people, they stopped talking, because it's different and they're afraid. 235 00:12:51,533 --> 00:12:53,000 And those people don't see it as an adventure. 236 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,100 They see it as a threat. 237 00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:58,766 And so we have to have a defense of pluralism and a critique of anti-pluralism, and, frankly, 238 00:12:58,766 --> 00:13:02,600 get a lot of anti-pluralists involved with a lot of people unlike themselves, so they 239 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,133 can see it's not that scary. 240 00:13:04,133 --> 00:13:06,233 But that's the big cosmic debate I think I see here. 241 00:13:06,233 --> 00:13:09,466 AMNA NAWAZ: Just the big cosmic debate we all have to engage in. 242 00:13:09,466 --> 00:13:11,033 (LAUGHTER) 243 00:13:11,033 --> 00:13:12,266 AMNA NAWAZ: David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, big questions. 244 00:13:12,266 --> 00:13:13,333 I'm grateful to you both for being here today. 245 00:13:13,333 --> 00:13:14,333 Thank you. 246 00:13:14,333 --> 00:13:14,466 DAVID BROOKS: Thank you.