WEBVTT 00:02.100 --> 00:04.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: We're now nearly a week on from the two tragedies in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, 00:04.733 --> 00:06.866 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Ohio. 00:06.866 --> 00:09.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But the grave questions that have been raised in the aftermath remain, and likely will remain 00:09.366 --> 00:11.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% for some time. 00:11.333 --> 00:15.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% How, if at all, will American politics and American society respond? 00:15.433 --> 00:17.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That brings us to Brooks and Capehart. 00:17.600 --> 00:22.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart. 00:22.400 --> 00:24.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Mark Shields is away this week. 00:24.033 --> 00:25.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Welcome to you both. 00:25.066 --> 00:26.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thanks for being here. 00:26.266 --> 00:28.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Let's jump into the big topic for this week. 00:28.200 --> 00:30.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Obviously, gun violence was a big topic of conversation. 00:30.600 --> 00:32.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I want to go right to a poll. 00:32.600 --> 00:35.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We heard President Trump mention earlier today that Leader McConnell is totally on board 00:35.800 --> 00:37.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with background checks. 00:37.333 --> 00:39.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That would bring him in line with the rest of the country. 00:39.233 --> 00:43.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This is broken down by party support for universal background checks. 00:43.000 --> 00:47.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The floor there, David Brooks, is 84 percent for Republicans. 00:47.200 --> 00:50.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Do you see this as the moment that this legislation passes? 00:50.466 --> 00:53.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Well, of course, logically, you want to say yes, but we have been here 00:53.833 --> 00:57.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% so many times since Newtown and all -- Parkland and all the shootings, that we haven't quite 00:57.200 --> 00:59.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% got there. 00:59.266 --> 01:01.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so how can something with that kind of support even among Republicans not pass? 01:01.800 --> 01:06.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% First, the NRA has a zero compromise policy, that we won't accept any compromise at all. 01:07.666 --> 01:09.366 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We're just holding the line. 01:09.366 --> 01:11.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And so far, for 20 or 30 years, that has sort of been working for them. 01:11.600 --> 01:14.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Second, it's low salient issue. 01:14.400 --> 01:17.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% People care about guns on the week after something like this happens. 01:17.600 --> 01:21.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And then you ask them, rank the issues you care about, guns start dropping down. 01:21.900 --> 01:25.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And then the third, it's turned into a culture war, where, for a lot of people, it's not 01:25.666 --> 01:27.066 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% about guns at all. 01:27.066 --> 01:29.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's about my culture vs. your culture. 01:29.166 --> 01:32.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And if you want to control my guns, which are part of my gun clubs, part of my community, 01:32.600 --> 01:35.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you're just a bunch of coastal elites coming after me. 01:35.066 --> 01:39.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so I hope this is a week when that changes, but we have a right to be a little skeptical. 01:39.333 --> 01:42.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the one opportunity -- and this is a perverse way to put it -- is that we might not have 01:42.933 --> 01:46.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% - - we might have the same gun debate over and over again, but what's become new this 01:46.466 --> 01:51.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% week is, it's a terrorism issue as well, in that the people, especially in El Paso, but 01:53.366 --> 01:55.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in a lot of these other shootings, they are killing on behalf of an ideology that is a 01:55.933 --> 01:58.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% little like the ISIS ideology in some ways. 01:58.666 --> 02:03.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And we could -- if we had a discussion, what do we do to combat domestic terrorism, that, 02:03.066 --> 02:06.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we might be able to have a different kind of conversation and pass some of the things 02:06.066 --> 02:07.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we couldn't pass any other way. 02:07.566 --> 02:09.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: The threat might be different there, you think. 02:09.700 --> 02:12.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: You might rearrange the political alliances, because the gun issue, people are 02:12.966 --> 02:14.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% pretty baked in. 02:14.166 --> 02:15.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, what do you think? 02:15.600 --> 02:17.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, we do have this conversation again and again. 02:17.133 --> 02:19.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's usually right after one of these mass public events. 02:19.633 --> 02:23.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You remember, back in 2012, after kindergartners were murdered... 02:23.800 --> 02:25.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes. 02:25.266 --> 02:26.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: ... we thought, OK, this is the moment. 02:26.066 --> 02:27.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And then it wasn't. 02:27.000 --> 02:29.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right. 02:29.400 --> 02:32.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% If the slaughter of 20 children in their elementary school wasn't enough to move the Senate, to 02:35.400 --> 02:40.166 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% move the U.S. Congress to pass even just background checks -- it failed by six votes -- then nothing 02:42.300 --> 02:44.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% will move them. 02:44.333 --> 02:48.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% To David's point about, a week we will be talking about, we will move on, but I think 02:51.366 --> 02:54.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the momentum in this case will dissipate greatly because the president just left for vacation. 02:56.333 --> 02:59.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is already on vacation. 02:59.800 --> 03:02.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's already said the Senate's not coming back. 03:02.533 --> 03:07.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so by the time they come back in September, God forbid we're not talking about another 03:07.200 --> 03:12.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% mass shooting, but it might not be until another mass shooting that you get the kind of energy 03:13.766 --> 03:17.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and momentum that's needed to push such a heavy rock up the hill. 03:17.133 --> 03:20.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Do you think if they face -- members of Congress are in their home districts. 03:20.133 --> 03:23.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% If they're getting questions about it, that could help add to some momentum? 03:23.300 --> 03:28.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, look, again, going back to Newtown, the national outrage over 03:30.133 --> 03:34.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what happened wasn't enough to blunt the power of the NRA. 03:34.066 --> 03:39.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So I don't know how much a town hall is going to -- or successive town halls will be to 03:40.166 --> 03:41.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% change the momentum. 03:41.600 --> 03:43.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: The cultural issue cannot be underestimated. 03:43.666 --> 03:48.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I have always loved Mayor Bloomberg, but it wasn't good for the gun issue that the guy 03:50.433 --> 03:52.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% spending all the money around the country and becoming a spokesperson for the movement 03:52.100 --> 03:54.500 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was the mayor of New York City. 03:54.500 --> 03:59.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This has to be led by a group of red state people who are rock-ribbed Republicans who 03:59.000 --> 04:03.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% say, I'm very Republican, I love to shoot, guns are part of my culture, but we got to 04:03.433 --> 04:05.466 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% change. 04:05.466 --> 04:06.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And until you can get red state leaders doing that, it's going to be a tougher issue. 04:06.933 --> 04:08.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Let me ask you about something else. 04:08.800 --> 04:12.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The president did, obviously, make a visit to those affected communities. 04:12.000 --> 04:16.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And his team put out what's basically a highly produced edited video of his visit on the 04:16.833 --> 04:18.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% ground in El Paso. 04:18.433 --> 04:21.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You're watching a clip of it right there. 04:21.133 --> 04:25.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% There was a contrast there between some of the reports we heard on the ground from journalists 04:25.266 --> 04:26.733 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and then another video. 04:26.733 --> 04:29.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was cell phone video that emerged after the visit. 04:29.133 --> 04:33.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It showed the president on the ground in El Paso talking about his crowd size at a rally 04:33.766 --> 04:36.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% back in February and comparing it to Beto O'Rourke's. 04:36.600 --> 04:38.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Take a quick listen to what he said. 04:38.233 --> 04:40.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: That was some crowd. 04:40.200 --> 04:41.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% WOMAN: Thank you. 04:41.700 --> 04:42.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DONALD TRUMP: And we had twice the number outside. 04:42.900 --> 04:45.233 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% And then you had this crazy Beto. 04:45.233 --> 04:48.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Beto had like 400 people in a parking lot. 04:48.200 --> 04:49.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They said his crowd was wonderful. 04:49.900 --> 04:53.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, there is kind of a tale of two narratives there. 04:53.000 --> 04:55.766 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% In the moment, you don't really know which one to pay attention to. 04:55.766 --> 05:00.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, the narrative here is consistent. 05:00.400 --> 05:05.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% President Trump is at the center of that narrative, whether it's that highly produced campaign-style-like 05:07.366 --> 05:10.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% video of his visits to El Paso Dayton, or it's that cell phone video where he's talking 05:12.866 --> 05:16.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about one of the things that is part of his greatest hits, crowd size. 05:16.266 --> 05:19.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% He has talked about crowd size since the day of his inauguration. 05:19.933 --> 05:23.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And, for him, that is a marker of popularity. 05:23.333 --> 05:28.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, in that moment, what I would expect the people of El Paso and Dayton, the people in 05:31.400 --> 05:36.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Ohio, the American people who are grieving - - and also Texas -- people who are grieving, 05:37.833 --> 05:42.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what they want to see from a president is comfort. 05:43.900 --> 05:45.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They want to see someone consoling them. 05:45.833 --> 05:48.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I was in New York on 9/11. 05:48.733 --> 05:53.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And President George W. Bush was president of the United States, and I had lots of disagreements 05:53.566 --> 05:56.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with the policies of President George W. Bush. 05:56.600 --> 06:01.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But when he stood on that rubble at ground zero and talked to those workers, and talked 06:03.600 --> 06:07.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to the city, and talked to the nation, that's exactly what we needed to hear then. 06:09.133 --> 06:12.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% When President Obama went to Charleston and impromptu sang "Amazing Grace" at the eulogy 06:16.633 --> 06:20.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for Clementa Pinckney, a state senator who was murdered with eight other people in Mother 06:20.800 --> 06:25.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Emanuel Church, in that moment, he channeled the grief of a church, of a city, of a community, 06:30.533 --> 06:32.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and of a nation. 06:32.800 --> 06:35.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We didn't get that with President Trump. 06:35.166 --> 06:37.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: David, how do you look at this, really? 06:37.600 --> 06:39.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He's such a divisive figure anyway. 06:39.300 --> 06:42.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There is the standard of the consoler in chief. 06:42.200 --> 06:43.200 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% He hasn't done it yet. 06:43.200 --> 06:44.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's not who he is. 06:44.333 --> 06:45.333 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Right? 06:45.333 --> 06:47.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Yes. 06:47.400 --> 06:49.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Well, there's a photo, a still from that visit where he's with the orphan baby and two family 06:49.200 --> 06:50.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% members, with his wife. 06:50.400 --> 06:51.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And Melania is holding the child. 06:51.700 --> 06:53.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he's got this grin and the thumb up. 06:53.666 --> 06:57.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And when I looked at that photo, I thought, the Democrats are having a debate: Is he a 06:57.433 --> 06:58.433 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% racist? 06:58.433 --> 06:59.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Is he a white supremacist? 06:59.933 --> 07:02.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I look at that photo, I think, well, he's a sociopath. 07:02.166 --> 07:05.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's incapable of experiencing or showing empathy. 07:05.066 --> 07:09.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, politically, it's helpful for him to target that lack of empathy and fellow feeling 07:09.866 --> 07:11.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% toward people of color. 07:11.666 --> 07:15.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But how much have we seen him show empathy for anybody? 07:15.466 --> 07:20.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so I look at that as someone who is unloved and made himself unlovable and whose subject 07:21.666 --> 07:23.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is himself, is his own competitive greatness. 07:23.800 --> 07:26.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so he doesn't do the consoler in chief just because he doesn't do that emotional 07:26.833 --> 07:28.200 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% range. 07:28.200 --> 07:30.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that's a burden and a cost for any of us. 07:30.700 --> 07:34.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: You mentioned the white supremacy line there. 07:34.933 --> 07:39.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We have obviously been talking about that a lot in 2019 now. 07:39.133 --> 07:44.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And Lisa Desjardins was reporting earlier too on the ground in Iowa there. 07:44.066 --> 07:49.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Candidates are being asked about that: Do you think this president is a white supremacist? 07:50.900 --> 07:53.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Is that sort of a litmus test now for candidates moving forward? 07:53.433 --> 07:56.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: It's an easy emotional inflation, it seems to me. 07:56.666 --> 08:00.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I thought Biden's answer and Kamala Harris' was pretty good, which is, I don't know, but 08:00.733 --> 08:02.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% he's certainly enabling them. 08:02.033 --> 08:04.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he's certainly speaking the language. 08:04.233 --> 08:06.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He uses the language of invasion when talking about immigration. 08:06.666 --> 08:10.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Now, I read a lot of the manifestos this week and those who have actually killed in Christchurch, 08:10.366 --> 08:12.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% New Zealand, and El Paso. 08:12.133 --> 08:13.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% They start with invasion. 08:13.133 --> 08:14.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They go many more steps. 08:14.700 --> 08:17.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They believe that racial mixing really is a cancer. 08:17.733 --> 08:20.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they have this deep separatism. 08:20.400 --> 08:22.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I don't know if Trump has that. 08:22.466 --> 08:25.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But he has certainly set an atmosphere where it's easier to talk about human beings as 08:25.966 --> 08:27.466 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% an invasion. 08:27.466 --> 08:29.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of all this right now, Jonathan? 08:29.300 --> 08:30.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's a big topic. 08:30.300 --> 08:31.800 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This is nothing new in America. 08:31.800 --> 08:34.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And yet it's new in terms of how prevalent it is. 08:34.333 --> 08:39.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right, because -- and it pains me to say this, but we're talking about 08:41.300 --> 08:44.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it because the president of the United States is a racist with a white supremacist policy 08:46.366 --> 08:48.433 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% agenda. 08:48.433 --> 08:52.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He began his political career questioning the legitimacy of the first African-American 08:53.333 --> 08:55.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% president. 08:55.400 --> 08:59.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He started his campaign within the first two minutes saying that Mexicans were -- quote 08:59.033 --> 09:01.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - - "rapists." 09:01.166 --> 09:05.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He called for a complete and total ban on Muslims entering the United States after the 09:05.666 --> 09:10.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% San Bernardino attack during the campaign in December 2016. 09:13.566 --> 09:18.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He's used words on the campaign trail from the midterm elections and continued, invasion, 09:22.766 --> 09:27.766 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% caravans, infestation, animals, to what David was talking about. 09:29.766 --> 09:33.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% In policy and in rhetoric, he is feeding into this environment, this atmosphere, where people 09:35.133 --> 09:40.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% such as the shooter in El Paso who has -- we have seen the affidavit. 09:42.166 --> 09:45.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% He's confessed in doing what he's done, and confessed to targeting -- quote -- "Mexicans." 09:48.433 --> 09:50.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That -- these things don't happen in a vacuum. 09:50.700 --> 09:54.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Did the president order this person to do this? 09:54.400 --> 09:56.433 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% No. 09:56.433 --> 10:00.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But that person heard in that rhetoric -- and we have seen it from New Zealand, around the 10:02.400 --> 10:06.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% world, but particularly here, where we are dealing with a domestic terrorism problem, 10:08.666 --> 10:11.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% where the primary people committing these terrorist acts are white supremacists. 10:13.933 --> 10:17.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We're dealing with a situation here where the president of the United States is feeding 10:17.100 --> 10:22.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% into it with the rhetoric that's coming out of his mouth, whether it's from a podium at 10:24.166 --> 10:28.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the White House or from a podium at a campaign rally somewhere in the country. 10:28.366 --> 10:29.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Yes. 10:29.800 --> 10:32.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I hear you talking, and I think I basically agree with it. 10:32.700 --> 10:37.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Then I -- my next question is, well, how do we then do democracy for the next 16 months? 10:37.000 --> 10:40.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Like, there is a presumption that we're all Americans together. 10:40.133 --> 10:43.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% There's a presumption of goodwill, that we can have a conversation. 10:43.900 --> 10:48.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And maybe Donald Trump -- but how do we address ourselves to Donald Trump supporters, many 10:48.266 --> 10:51.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of whom are very realistic and are supporters of him for good reasons having to do with 10:51.500 --> 10:54.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% their own lives and the dissolution of their own communities. 10:54.933 --> 10:59.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's going to be hard to have a conversation once the president has been declared sort 11:01.566 --> 11:03.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of really beneath contempt. 11:03.466 --> 11:05.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I'm not saying I disagree with you. 11:05.566 --> 11:07.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm just saying this is a problem we have to deal with as we try to have a national 11:07.233 --> 11:08.900 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% conversation over this election. 11:08.900 --> 11:10.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: Is there a way -- and we just have a couple minutes left. 11:10.600 --> 11:11.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's a big question. 11:11.900 --> 11:13.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But, Jonathan, try, if you can. 11:13.866 --> 11:18.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Is there a way to take politics out of this to explain why these kinds of ideas are so 11:18.866 --> 11:19.800 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% dangerous? 11:19.800 --> 11:20.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Obviously, they're not new. 11:20.966 --> 11:23.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They have been around for a while. 11:23.033 --> 11:26.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% They have just been mainstreamed to some degree because they're being spoken from the highest 11:26.500 --> 11:28.366 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% office in the land. 11:28.366 --> 11:32.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: You know, gosh, we have got a minute or so left? 11:32.433 --> 11:33.433 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Thanks. 11:33.433 --> 11:34.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thanks for the question. 11:34.433 --> 11:36.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 11:36.500 --> 11:40.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: I think what -- there's no way to separate politics from this. 11:42.600 --> 11:45.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think Vice President Biden and Senator Cory Booker in speeches on the same day told the 11:47.200 --> 11:50.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% story of America from two different perspectives. 11:50.166 --> 11:54.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Vice President Biden talked about -- talked about the country and the problems that it 11:54.333 --> 11:57.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% has, about America as an idea. 11:57.000 --> 12:00.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And Cory Booker -- or Senator Booker talked about the same thing, but coming at it from 12:00.766 --> 12:05.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the perspective of, America is an idea, but we have deep-seated issues that go right back 12:07.166 --> 12:11.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to white supremacy being woven into our founding documents. 12:11.433 --> 12:15.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And we have to -- we have to talk about that, we have to address it, we have to acknowledge 12:15.666 --> 12:17.300 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% it. 12:17.300 --> 12:18.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And, once we do that, then we can take the steps to reconciliation. 12:18.966 --> 12:21.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: And I would say I'm a pluralist. 12:21.533 --> 12:25.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We're probably all pluralists, who we see good people around like ourselves, cool, like, 12:25.200 --> 12:28.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% let's eat different food, let's meet different people, let's have wide experience. 12:28.766 --> 12:31.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And a lot of us are conservatives, whether you're on the left or on the right. 12:31.800 --> 12:34.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But there are a lot of people who are anti-pluralists. 12:34.166 --> 12:38.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% When you present them with something different, they clam up, they shrink in, they become 12:38.900 --> 12:40.500 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% more fearful. 12:40.500 --> 12:42.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Just -- Conor Friedersdorf had a piece in "The Atlantic" today. 12:42.433 --> 12:46.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And it was about people being interviewed by an African-American interviewer. 12:46.833 --> 12:51.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And some people, they stopped talking, because it's different and they're afraid. 12:51.533 --> 12:53.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And those people don't see it as an adventure. 12:53.000 --> 12:55.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They see it as a threat. 12:55.100 --> 12:58.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so we have to have a defense of pluralism and a critique of anti-pluralism, and, frankly, 12:58.766 --> 13:02.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% get a lot of anti-pluralists involved with a lot of people unlike themselves, so they 13:02.600 --> 13:04.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% can see it's not that scary. 13:04.133 --> 13:06.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But that's the big cosmic debate I think I see here. 13:06.233 --> 13:09.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: Just the big cosmic debate we all have to engage in. 13:09.466 --> 13:11.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 13:11.033 --> 13:12.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% AMNA NAWAZ: David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, big questions. 13:12.266 --> 13:13.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm grateful to you both for being here today. 13:13.333 --> 13:14.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Thank you. 13:14.333 --> 13:14.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Thank you.