1 00:00:02,066 --> 00:00:05,000 JOHN YANG: On average, the world produces 430 million metric tons of plastic every year. The 2 00:00:07,100 --> 00:00:11,333 United States alone produces 10s of millions of tons of plastic waste annually. Yet on average, 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,533 in the United States, only about five to 6 percent of plastic is recycled. Ali Rogin digs 4 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:23,433 into a new report covering the plastic industries, tactics to push recycling and avoid regulation. 5 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:29,133 ALI ROGIN: A new report by the Center for Climate Integrity and environmentalist group 6 00:00:29,133 --> 00:00:33,533 says newly uncovered statements from oil and plastics executives underscore 7 00:00:33,533 --> 00:00:38,500 the industry's decades long secret skepticism about the viability and efficacy of recycling. 8 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,733 The authors of the report reviewed old investigations and new documents, 9 00:00:43,733 --> 00:00:48,433 including previously unknown assertions from industry executives. In 1994, 10 00:00:48,433 --> 00:00:53,400 one Exxon chemical executive put the industry support for plastics recycling in blunt terms, 11 00:00:55,433 --> 00:00:58,466 saying, quote, we are committed to the activities, but not committed to the results. 12 00:01:00,533 --> 00:01:03,266 Another representative from DuPont noted in 1992, that recycling goals were set, 13 00:01:03,266 --> 00:01:07,200 knowing full well quote, they were unlikely to meet them. 14 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,833 Michael Copley is a correspondent covering climate issues for NPR. Michael, 15 00:01:10,833 --> 00:01:14,666 thank you so much for joining us. Some of these quotes that are in this report are very blunt, 16 00:01:14,666 --> 00:01:17,000 they might be shocking to some but you've been covering these issues 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,533 for a long time. Were you surprised by anything that's in this new report? 18 00:01:20,533 --> 00:01:23,533 MICHAEL COPLEY, NPR Correspondent: Yeah, I think what's in the report echoes a lot of what we've 19 00:01:23,533 --> 00:01:28,533 been seeing from previous investigations, and that is that the plastics industry pushed recycling 20 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,733 as a solution, even though industry officials have known for a long time that it wasn't going 21 00:01:33,733 --> 00:01:38,600 to be viable at scale, or that they had serious doubts about its ability to be viable at scale. 22 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,966 What we've seen is that they really looked at recycling as a way to kind of fend off regulation, 23 00:01:42,966 --> 00:01:46,733 and to keep selling more plastic. And so we've known about that. I think it's always striking 24 00:01:46,733 --> 00:01:51,066 when you see a report like this that honors, new statements, new quotes, and to see the 25 00:01:51,066 --> 00:01:56,033 way in which they really seem to view recycling as sort of, you know, a public relations tool, 26 00:01:57,933 --> 00:01:59,866 as opposed to an environmental tool that they sort of presented publicly. 27 00:01:59,866 --> 00:02:03,600 ALI ROGIN: Many of the most eyebrow raising quotes from this report are 10, 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,833 20, even 30 years old, if they're so old, why should we be paying attention than today? 29 00:02:07,833 --> 00:02:09,766 MICHAEL COPLEY: So right now what the industry is 30 00:02:09,766 --> 00:02:12,333 saying is the focus on these comments doesn't accurately reflect where the 31 00:02:12,333 --> 00:02:15,933 industry is today. And so what's asking for is sort of the public to trust it, 32 00:02:15,933 --> 00:02:20,200 that it's working on this new technology that is going to solve the problem of plastic waste now. 33 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,900 And I think that the historical record sort of undercuts public trust in the industry and 34 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:29,400 raises questions about those assertions now. I think the other reason why this matters is it 35 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,033 could potentially be legally problematic for the industry. And by that I mean, 36 00:02:33,033 --> 00:02:37,033 the oil and gas industry right now is facing dozens of lawsuits from states and localities, 37 00:02:37,033 --> 00:02:42,033 based in part on statements it made about climate change and fossil fuel going back decades. 38 00:02:43,966 --> 00:02:46,100 We know that the state of California has opened an investigation into the role of 39 00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:50,633 oil and gas companies in the petrochemical industry, in kind of the creation of the 40 00:02:50,633 --> 00:02:54,500 plastic waste crisis that we're facing. And the group that put out the report and 41 00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:59,466 Center for Climate Integrity was upfront, saying that it was compiling this to serve 42 00:03:01,433 --> 00:03:04,633 as kind of the fact basis or the basis of evidence for potential legal action. 43 00:03:06,533 --> 00:03:08,233 ALI ROGIN: I want to read a response we got from a plastics trade group called 44 00:03:08,233 --> 00:03:11,533 America's Plastic Makers. Their President accused this report and 45 00:03:11,533 --> 00:03:15,533 the authors of it of citing quote outdated decades old technologies, 46 00:03:15,533 --> 00:03:19,900 and says it's mischaracterizing the current state of the industry as you were just talking about. 47 00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:24,833 This group also says that plastic makers are looking to have all plastic packaging be, 48 00:03:24,833 --> 00:03:29,833 quote, reused, recycled and recovered by 2040. So you just mentioned this, 49 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:35,400 but where does plastics recycling technology stand right now how advanced is that technology? 50 00:03:37,233 --> 00:03:39,133 MICHAEL COPLEY: So the industry has present Advanced recycling chemical 51 00:03:39,133 --> 00:03:44,066 recycling as a real solution. There is deep skepticism of it. And not just 52 00:03:45,833 --> 00:03:48,900 from sort of environmental sealed, who you'll talk to but, you know -- 53 00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:52,700 ALI ROGIN: Right. And I should note, Michael, that advanced recycling is actually a term of 54 00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:57,700 art that is used among the plastics industry to describe the current state of this recycling. 55 00:03:59,233 --> 00:04:01,366 MICHAEL COPLEY: Yeah, that's right. And so as opposed to 56 00:04:01,366 --> 00:04:05,633 sort of traditional mechanical recycling, what they're doing now is turning plastics, 57 00:04:05,633 --> 00:04:10,633 sort of back into liquids and gases to sort of reuse. The skepticism comes from questions 58 00:04:12,333 --> 00:04:15,533 about anything about the economics of recycling changed. If in the past, 59 00:04:15,533 --> 00:04:20,533 it was cheaper to make new plastic, why is that not still the case, especially when you 60 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,000 see low oil and gas prices, and the other piece of it is plastic degrades over time. 61 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,833 And so what scientists say is there are just limits to how many times you 62 00:04:29,833 --> 00:04:33,766 can reuse plastics. So there is deep skepticism. 63 00:04:33,766 --> 00:04:35,600 ALI ROGIN: What does your reporting say about 64 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,233 this claim that all plastics will be recyclable by the year 2040? 65 00:04:40,233 --> 00:04:42,466 MICHAEL COPLEY: Obviously, the industry has put out this promise, 66 00:04:42,466 --> 00:04:47,433 I think that its critics will say we have been hearing these promises or promises like it for 67 00:04:47,433 --> 00:04:51,733 decades now. And that there is nothing in the record to think that now is any different. 68 00:04:51,733 --> 00:04:56,000 ALI ROGIN: Is there a solution here that climate activists and environmental experts agree on that 69 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,000 that actually includes recycling? Or is there a consensus among that side of the issue that 70 00:05:03,033 --> 00:05:05,933 stakeholders need to be looking at solutions, beyond recycling, that recycling is not the 71 00:05:05,933 --> 00:05:10,400 be all end all to avert the climate crisis that experts will point to and say we're in. 72 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,066 MICHAEL COPLEY: There's a recognition that plastic is so engrained in modern life, 73 00:05:14,066 --> 00:05:17,266 and it plays important roles in medical devices and other things, 74 00:05:17,266 --> 00:05:21,000 that it's almost impossible to envision a world where we move completely beyond plastic. 75 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,000 I think what people are talking about is reducing plastic production to a level that is more 76 00:05:28,233 --> 00:05:31,866 manageable with kind of recycling systems, getting rid of types of plastic that are especially hard 77 00:05:33,866 --> 00:05:37,066 to recycle, you can't recycle, being more transparent about what chemicals go into 78 00:05:37,066 --> 00:05:42,066 this stuff that again, make recycling hard, but it really does come down to when you talk to not just 79 00:05:44,166 --> 00:05:47,700 activists, but also businesses, increasingly, that regulation is going to play a big role. 80 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:51,933 And so that, you know, there was a hearing in the Senate and the head of SC Johnson, 81 00:05:51,933 --> 00:05:54,666 A big consumer goods company, said something to the effect 82 00:05:54,666 --> 00:05:59,666 of we need government regulation. Businesses can't do this on their own. 83 00:06:01,566 --> 00:06:03,700 And I think, you know, again, that gets back in large part to the economics of 84 00:06:03,700 --> 00:06:08,333 this if companies don't have to deal with these costs. It's hard to imagine that they will in 85 00:06:10,266 --> 00:06:12,900 sort of a sustained way, create systems to deal with this if they don't have to. 86 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:15,633 ALI ROGIN: Michael Copley, correspondent covering climate issues for NPR, 87 00:06:15,633 --> 00:06:17,566 thank you so much for breaking this down for us. 88 00:06:17,566 --> 00:06:18,533 MICHAEL COPLEY: Thanks Ali.