WEBVTT 00:02.066 --> 00:05.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JOHN YANG: On average, the world produces 430 million metric tons of plastic every year. The 00:07.100 --> 00:11.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% United States alone produces 10s of millions of tons of plastic waste annually. Yet on average, 00:13.400 --> 00:17.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in the United States, only about five to 6 percent of plastic is recycled. Ali Rogin digs 00:19.900 --> 00:23.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% into a new report covering the plastic industries, tactics to push recycling and avoid regulation. 00:25.500 --> 00:29.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALI ROGIN: A new report by the Center for Climate Integrity and environmentalist group 00:29.133 --> 00:33.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% says newly uncovered statements from oil and plastics executives underscore 00:33.533 --> 00:38.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the industry's decades long secret skepticism about the viability and efficacy of recycling. 00:40.400 --> 00:43.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The authors of the report reviewed old investigations and new documents, 00:43.733 --> 00:48.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% including previously unknown assertions from industry executives. In 1994, 00:48.433 --> 00:53.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% one Exxon chemical executive put the industry support for plastics recycling in blunt terms, 00:55.433 --> 00:58.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% saying, quote, we are committed to the activities, but not committed to the results. 01:00.533 --> 01:03.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Another representative from DuPont noted in 1992, that recycling goals were set, 01:03.266 --> 01:07.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% knowing full well quote, they were unlikely to meet them. 01:07.200 --> 01:10.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Michael Copley is a correspondent covering climate issues for NPR. Michael, 01:10.833 --> 01:14.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% thank you so much for joining us. Some of these quotes that are in this report are very blunt, 01:14.666 --> 01:17.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% they might be shocking to some but you've been covering these issues 01:17.000 --> 01:20.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% for a long time. Were you surprised by anything that's in this new report? 01:20.533 --> 01:23.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% MICHAEL COPLEY, NPR Correspondent: Yeah, I think what's in the report echoes a lot of what we've 01:23.533 --> 01:28.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% been seeing from previous investigations, and that is that the plastics industry pushed recycling 01:30.800 --> 01:33.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% as a solution, even though industry officials have known for a long time that it wasn't going 01:33.733 --> 01:38.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to be viable at scale, or that they had serious doubts about its ability to be viable at scale. 01:38.600 --> 01:42.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% What we've seen is that they really looked at recycling as a way to kind of fend off regulation, 01:42.966 --> 01:46.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and to keep selling more plastic. And so we've known about that. I think it's always striking 01:46.733 --> 01:51.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% when you see a report like this that honors, new statements, new quotes, and to see the 01:51.066 --> 01:56.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% way in which they really seem to view recycling as sort of, you know, a public relations tool, 01:57.933 --> 01:59.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as opposed to an environmental tool that they sort of presented publicly. 01:59.866 --> 02:03.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ALI ROGIN: Many of the most eyebrow raising quotes from this report are 10, 02:03.600 --> 02:07.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 20, even 30 years old, if they're so old, why should we be paying attention than today? 02:07.833 --> 02:09.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% MICHAEL COPLEY: So right now what the industry is 02:09.766 --> 02:12.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% saying is the focus on these comments doesn't accurately reflect where the 02:12.333 --> 02:15.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% industry is today. And so what's asking for is sort of the public to trust it, 02:15.933 --> 02:20.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that it's working on this new technology that is going to solve the problem of plastic waste now. 02:20.200 --> 02:24.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think that the historical record sort of undercuts public trust in the industry and 02:24.900 --> 02:29.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% raises questions about those assertions now. I think the other reason why this matters is it 02:29.400 --> 02:33.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% could potentially be legally problematic for the industry. And by that I mean, 02:33.033 --> 02:37.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the oil and gas industry right now is facing dozens of lawsuits from states and localities, 02:37.033 --> 02:42.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% based in part on statements it made about climate change and fossil fuel going back decades. 02:43.966 --> 02:46.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We know that the state of California has opened an investigation into the role of 02:46.100 --> 02:50.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% oil and gas companies in the petrochemical industry, in kind of the creation of the 02:50.633 --> 02:54.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% plastic waste crisis that we're facing. And the group that put out the report and 02:54.500 --> 02:59.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Center for Climate Integrity was upfront, saying that it was compiling this to serve 03:01.433 --> 03:04.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as kind of the fact basis or the basis of evidence for potential legal action. 03:06.533 --> 03:08.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALI ROGIN: I want to read a response we got from a plastics trade group called 03:08.233 --> 03:11.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% America's Plastic Makers. Their President accused this report and 03:11.533 --> 03:15.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the authors of it of citing quote outdated decades old technologies, 03:15.533 --> 03:19.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and says it's mischaracterizing the current state of the industry as you were just talking about. 03:19.900 --> 03:24.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This group also says that plastic makers are looking to have all plastic packaging be, 03:24.833 --> 03:29.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% quote, reused, recycled and recovered by 2040. So you just mentioned this, 03:32.100 --> 03:35.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% but where does plastics recycling technology stand right now how advanced is that technology? 03:37.233 --> 03:39.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MICHAEL COPLEY: So the industry has present Advanced recycling chemical 03:39.133 --> 03:44.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% recycling as a real solution. There is deep skepticism of it. And not just 03:45.833 --> 03:48.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% from sort of environmental sealed, who you'll talk to but, you know -- 03:48.900 --> 03:52.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALI ROGIN: Right. And I should note, Michael, that advanced recycling is actually a term of 03:52.700 --> 03:57.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% art that is used among the plastics industry to describe the current state of this recycling. 03:59.233 --> 04:01.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% MICHAEL COPLEY: Yeah, that's right. And so as opposed to 04:01.366 --> 04:05.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sort of traditional mechanical recycling, what they're doing now is turning plastics, 04:05.633 --> 04:10.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sort of back into liquids and gases to sort of reuse. The skepticism comes from questions 04:12.333 --> 04:15.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% about anything about the economics of recycling changed. If in the past, 04:15.533 --> 04:20.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it was cheaper to make new plastic, why is that not still the case, especially when you 04:22.600 --> 04:26.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% see low oil and gas prices, and the other piece of it is plastic degrades over time. 04:26.000 --> 04:29.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so what scientists say is there are just limits to how many times you 04:29.833 --> 04:33.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% can reuse plastics. So there is deep skepticism. 04:33.766 --> 04:35.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ALI ROGIN: What does your reporting say about 04:35.600 --> 04:40.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% this claim that all plastics will be recyclable by the year 2040? 04:40.233 --> 04:42.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MICHAEL COPLEY: Obviously, the industry has put out this promise, 04:42.466 --> 04:47.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think that its critics will say we have been hearing these promises or promises like it for 04:47.433 --> 04:51.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% decades now. And that there is nothing in the record to think that now is any different. 04:51.733 --> 04:56.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% ALI ROGIN: Is there a solution here that climate activists and environmental experts agree on that 04:56.000 --> 05:01.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% that actually includes recycling? Or is there a consensus among that side of the issue that 05:03.033 --> 05:05.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% stakeholders need to be looking at solutions, beyond recycling, that recycling is not the 05:05.933 --> 05:10.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% be all end all to avert the climate crisis that experts will point to and say we're in. 05:10.400 --> 05:14.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MICHAEL COPLEY: There's a recognition that plastic is so engrained in modern life, 05:14.066 --> 05:17.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and it plays important roles in medical devices and other things, 05:17.266 --> 05:21.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that it's almost impossible to envision a world where we move completely beyond plastic. 05:21.000 --> 05:26.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I think what people are talking about is reducing plastic production to a level that is more 05:28.233 --> 05:31.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% manageable with kind of recycling systems, getting rid of types of plastic that are especially hard 05:33.866 --> 05:37.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to recycle, you can't recycle, being more transparent about what chemicals go into 05:37.066 --> 05:42.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this stuff that again, make recycling hard, but it really does come down to when you talk to not just 05:44.166 --> 05:47.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% activists, but also businesses, increasingly, that regulation is going to play a big role. 05:47.700 --> 05:51.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so that, you know, there was a hearing in the Senate and the head of SC Johnson, 05:51.933 --> 05:54.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% A big consumer goods company, said something to the effect 05:54.666 --> 05:59.666 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% of we need government regulation. Businesses can't do this on their own. 06:01.566 --> 06:03.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think, you know, again, that gets back in large part to the economics of 06:03.700 --> 06:08.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this if companies don't have to deal with these costs. It's hard to imagine that they will in 06:10.266 --> 06:12.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% sort of a sustained way, create systems to deal with this if they don't have to. 06:12.900 --> 06:15.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALI ROGIN: Michael Copley, correspondent covering climate issues for NPR, 06:15.633 --> 06:17.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thank you so much for breaking this down for us. 06:17.566 --> 06:18.533 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% MICHAEL COPLEY: Thanks Ali.