WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:04.333 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% JUDY WOODRUFF: The protests in Philadelphia against police violence are the latest in 00:04.333 --> 00:09.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% a year of nationwide demonstrations against racism and police using excessive force. 00:11.300 --> 00:15.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Amna Nawaz is back with more on how the protest movement of today takes a page from history. 00:17.533 --> 00:21.833 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% AMNA NAWAZ: To help us put this moment into context, I'm joined by Peniel Joseph. He's 00:23.766 --> 00:26.366 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% the founding director of the Center for the Study of Race and Democracy at the University 00:26.366 --> 00:31.366 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% of Texas at Austin. He's also the author of "The Sword and the Shield: The Revolutionary 00:32.533 --> 00:35.366 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% Lives of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr." 00:35.366 --> 00:37.400 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% Professor Joseph, welcome to the "NewsHour." 00:37.400 --> 00:41.900 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% A lot of people are turning to history to better understand what it is we're seeing 00:41.900 --> 00:45.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% right now at this moment in history. When you compare the protests, as you see them 00:45.666 --> 00:50.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% today, and the protests back in the civil rights movement, do you see more similarities 00:50.233 --> 00:52.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% or more differences? 00:52.333 --> 00:53.166 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% PENIEL JOSEPH, Founding Director, Center for the Study of Race and Democracy: Yes, thank 00:53.166 --> 00:55.333 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% you for having me, Amna. 00:55.333 --> 00:58.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% I see both. In the context of the 1960s, we did have massive upheavals for racial justice. 01:00.600 --> 01:05.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Much of that was peaceful. But, at the same time, both during the Kennedy and the Johnson 01:07.600 --> 01:10.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% and the Nixon administrations, we did see urban rebellions in Los Angeles, in Detroit, 01:12.566 --> 01:17.033 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% in Newark, New Jersey, and Harlem that did spill over into violence. 01:18.966 --> 01:21.000 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% When we think about the comparisons, though, the numbers of whites who are participating, 01:21.000 --> 01:22.933 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% Amna, is unprecedented. 01:22.933 --> 01:27.633 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% So in 1963, for example, there's a 10-week period in the spring of 1963 where we have 01:29.533 --> 01:33.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% over 700 racial justice demonstrations, we have almost 15,000 people arrested. In this 01:35.600 --> 01:40.366 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% year alone, we have had over 7,000 separate anti-racist, social justice demonstrations 01:42.100 --> 01:45.833 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% in over 2,400 different locations. 01:45.833 --> 01:50.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Anywhere upwards of 20 million people have hit the streets to mobilize, organizing both 01:50.666 --> 01:55.633 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% at the grassroots level and in terms of corporate America, higher education, labor unions, NBA 01:57.400 --> 02:00.433 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% players, both Black and white and in between. 02:00.433 --> 02:05.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% So, this is unprecedented. We have never seen this kind of white involvement in any social 02:07.366 --> 02:10.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% justice movement in American history, let alone racial justice. So, this is -- we're 02:10.400 --> 02:13.000 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% in a whole new ballpark. 02:13.000 --> 02:16.233 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% AMNA NAWAZ: There was, as you mentioned -- decades ago, there was a tension between those calling 02:16.233 --> 02:21.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% for peaceful civil disobedience and those pushing for more aggressive kind of efforts. 02:23.133 --> 02:25.233 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And we say today -- when we talk about the Black lives matter marches, we say that they 02:25.233 --> 02:29.933 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% are largely peaceful, because they are. But they haven't been entirely without violence. 02:29.933 --> 02:34.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% So, when you look at that tension between what's happening now, what happened then, 02:34.600 --> 02:36.633 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% how do you view that? 02:36.633 --> 02:39.066 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% PENIEL JOSEPH: Well, I think there's always been a tension between those who might be 02:39.066 --> 02:43.666 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% advocating self-defense and those who are advocating just peaceful demonstrations, nonviolence. 02:43.666 --> 02:48.566 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% And, at times, we saw that tension between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. 02:48.566 --> 02:53.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% At the same time, the idea of violence in social justice movements is also way, way 02:55.466 --> 02:59.733 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% overblown. Of course, you're going to have some fringe activists and some folks who are 03:01.633 --> 03:05.733 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% going to say violence is going to be used strategically as a weapon of change. 03:07.733 --> 03:10.766 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But, by and large, most people are hugely, hugely nonviolent. The biggest violence that 03:13.133 --> 03:16.166 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% we have seen, quite frankly, over this spring and summer is law enforcement and state-sanctioned 03:18.133 --> 03:22.666 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% violence, whether that's law enforcement coming from Homeland Security in Portland, Oregon, 03:22.666 --> 03:27.166 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% whether it's cops in Buffalo who fractured the skull of an elderly person. 03:27.166 --> 03:32.166 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% And, at times, we have seen white vigilante violence in Kenosha, Wisconsin. So, demonstrators, 03:34.033 --> 03:37.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% for the most part and grassroots organizers all pretty much know that the way in which 03:37.533 --> 03:42.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% you get social change in the United States is nonviolently, through pressuring different 03:43.833 --> 03:46.100 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% institutions to transform public policies. 03:46.100 --> 03:50.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% AMNA NAWAZ: Let me ask you about public support for these protests, because there has been 03:50.533 --> 03:52.666 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% a shift that we should note. 03:52.666 --> 03:55.733 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% If you just look at one state, if you just look at Wisconsin, where Jacob Blake was recently 03:55.733 --> 04:00.733 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% shot, back in June, you saw 61 percent approval for the protests. By September, that had dropped 04:02.133 --> 04:04.600 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% to 47 percent. And we saw something similar in history. 04:04.600 --> 04:09.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% You go back to Gallup polls historically, in 1963, 27 percent of people said that they 04:09.600 --> 04:14.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% thought the protests would help racial equality. A year later, that dropped to 16 percent. 04:16.600 --> 04:20.300 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% Professor Joseph, how do you view the role of public opinion when it comes to these protests? 04:22.300 --> 04:24.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% PENIEL JOSEPH: Well, public opinion absolutely matters in a democracy like ours. 04:24.600 --> 04:28.300 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% But, at the same time, historically -- and we have seen it with those numbers that you 04:28.300 --> 04:33.300 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% just showed, Amna -- historically, public opinion has lagged behind social justice. 04:35.300 --> 04:38.600 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% So, the public opinion on gay marriage or women having the right to vote or anti-racism 04:40.033 --> 04:44.433 align:left position:0%,start line:86.67% size:100% has always lagged behind some kind of national consensus. 04:44.433 --> 04:49.433 align:left position:0%,start line:73.33% size:100% So, those numbers aren't that bad. We always have these watershed moments, like this spring, 04:51.900 --> 04:56.700 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% where you're going to have a lot of support for something. And those numbers are, of course, 04:56.700 --> 04:58.733 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% going to tick down. 04:58.733 --> 05:03.066 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% What's important in those numbers is that about half of Americans really support the 05:05.000 --> 05:08.733 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% BLM movement. And that is much, much bigger support and broader support than we saw for 05:09.600 --> 05:11.733 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% racial justice in 1963-1964. 05:11.733 --> 05:16.433 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% So, if anything, this is a new national consensus about Black dignity and Black citizenship, 05:18.866 --> 05:23.866 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% one that reverberates to all groups, all corners of this country and around the world in a 05:24.600 --> 05:26.566 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% really positive way. 05:26.566 --> 05:30.400 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% So, those numbers show us that we really do have this generational opportunity to end 05:32.333 --> 05:35.533 align:left position:0%,start line:80% size:100% systemic racism, to defeat white supremacy, to achieve our country in a new and different 05:36.266 --> 05:38.366 align:left position:12.5%,start line:93.33% size:87.5% way for the first time. 05:38.366 --> 05:42.200 align:left position:12.5%,start line:73.33% size:87.5% AMNA NAWAZ: That is Professor Peniel Joseph from the University of Texas at Austin joining 05:42.200 --> 05:43.200 align:left position:25%,start line:93.33% size:75% us tonight. 05:43.200 --> 05:44.333 align:left position:0%,start line:93.33% size:100% Thank you so much for your time. 05:44.333 --> 05:46.933 align:left position:12.5%,start line:86.67% size:87.5% PENIEL JOSEPH: Thanks for having me. 05:46.933 --> 05:50.433 align:left position:12.5%,start line:80% size:87.5% JUDY WOODRUFF: So helpful to have that historical perspective.