incumbent President Nayib Bukele.
He came to power# in 2019 and has since overseen a vast and brutal## crackdown on gangs that terrorized the nation# for decades, arresting more than 75,000 people.
His popularity has soared, but his government# has been accused of mass human rights abuses## and dismantling democratic institutions.
Judges# allied with Bukele reinterpreted a constitutional## ban on reelection, clearing his path to run for# a second term, along with his vice president,## Felix Ulloa, who sat down with me# in San Salvador earlier this week.
I asked him how long his country can# continue with mass arrests and detentions.
FELIX ULLOA, Vice President of El# Salvador: This is a big change.
And this happe the violence in the community, and the decision# by the president, Bukele, to face this challenge.## For us, when we took office, it was the# first challenge to bring back the peace,## the harmony to the communities that# were under the control of the gangs.
So, once we declared the war against the gangs in# year 2022, we started dealing with these criminal## structures.
Now we have over 76,000 captured# inmates coming from those structures.
And the## issue of the sustainability of this process, as# we said, is now in the hands of the population.
Because now the people trust in the institutions,# we can say that this is a new country.
AMNA NAWAZ: At the same time, you# have gone from having the highest## murder rate in the world to now having the The criticism is that there are a lot of innocent## people being rounded up and detained.# FELIX ULLOA: Take a look to the big picture.
We have so far 76,000 inmates.
From# ar e verified that they belong to the# gangs and to the criminal structure.
AMNA NAWAZ: Ninety percent of them?
FELIX ULLOA: Ninety percen captured over these two years that# the state of exception was in place,## more than 6,000 has been released, because# they prove in court that they were innocent.
AMNA NAWAZ: But 6,000 people -- if I may,## that's basically one out of every FELIX ULLOA: That, we will see.
AMNA NAWAZ: Is that acceptable to you as a rate?
FELIX ULLOA: I mean, we try to do our best,## but we're not perfect.
We ar AMNA NAWAZ: What about those who have yet to# be released, those who are still detained?
FELIX ULLOA: I mean, it's part of the job.# I mean, if you want to you can never get it, because# the perfect is enemy of the good.
If you want to do it perfect, you# will never say that.
So you have to## do your best, and you have the duty and the# responsibility to recognize AM NA NAWAZ: At the same time, one# of the reforms I know that's been## pushed through has meant mass# hearings are FELIX ULLOA: Yes.
AMNA NAWAZ: Up to 900 people in a single hearing?
FELIX ULLOA: Yes, absolutely.
AMNA NAWAZ: How is that justice?
FELIX ULLOA: A AMNA NAWAZ: An innovation?
FELI AM FELIX ULLOA: Yes.
AM FELIX ULLOA: It' that in a legal process in court.
You have# to create the provisio So we modified this responsibility,# which is -- in the past was personal.
AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.
FELIX ULLOA: How long you will take to conduct individual process for 76,000?
It# will take 10 So the only way is to proceed# and to charge the structure.
AMNA NAWAZ: The criticism, as you know,# is that this denies people due process,## that there's no way hundreds of people# can get a fair trial at the same time.
What I hear you saying in your mind, though, is# that the end justifies the means.
Is that cor FELIX ULLOA: Oh, no, no, no,# no, no, that's not correct.
What I'm saying is, in El Salv the 21st century.
If you were a# lawyer, you could understand.
I## am a lawyer.
And I study penal law from# all the doctrines, different doctrines.
AMNA NAWAZ: As a lawyer, could you# defend 900 people at the same time?
FELIX ULLOA: Yes.
Why not?
Because you are not# defending 900 people.
one only accused, which is the structure.
AMNA NAWAZ: Can I ask about another reform# that I know has gott FELIX ULLOA: Yes, of course.
Yes.
AMNA NAWAZ: Th as adults in the legal system.
That# was lowered from the age of 16 to 12.
FELIX ULLOA: Yes.
AM system.
Help us understand why that was necessary.
FELIX ULLOA: Yes, do you know why?
Because# young people And they went to kill you, and they were sent to# kill people, because the leaders of the gangs,## they understood that, under 16 years# old, they were not charged as an adult.
So they sent the kids to kill people.
AMNA NAWAZ: So they should be charged and# treated in FELIX ULLOA: I mean, tell# me, what else could you try?
AMNA NAWAZ: Is there any duty for the state to# pr FELIX ULLOA: Well, absolutely.
But this they have two, three, four homicides.
And the# law, the general terms, allow to the gangs to## kill people without being charged or escaping# of the justice.
Now we try that.
We close that.## The -- it was like a loophole that was in# the law.
And then we close that loophole.
AMNA NAWAZ: As you mentioned,# you are a constitutional lawyer.
FELIX ULLOA: Yes.
that it was very clear that it did not# allow for consecutive pres That all changed in 2021, when Supreme# Court magistrates who were appointed## by President Bukele, they reinterpreted# that clause to say he could run again.
So here we are now.
You and he are# both running again for consecutive## terms.
Do you worry that it weakens# the Constitution to have judges who## are viewed as allies of President# Bukele change it in his favor?
FELIX ULLOA: No.
weakened because the member --# the justice of the Supreme Court## were appointed by President Trump?
No, I# mean, this is the way that the AM NA NAWAZ: Well, I'm asking# about here in El Salvador, though.
FELIX ULLOA: No, no, no, what I' it works in any These Supreme Court chambers, they protect the# Constitution.
They said -- you can quote that,## Article 152, Number 1.
You check that, you will# find the legal base to run for President Bukele,## because that article said, the# person who is in the presidency,## if he wants to run for another# period has to fulfill two conditions.
First, he should be in the first term,# because, if he was in the second term,## he can't run.
And, second, he# has to take a leave of absence.
AMNA NAWAZ: Can I ask you, when the court ruled## that this new interpretation of# the Constituti U.S. officials came out and said that decision# undermines democracy.
Do you ag FELIX ULLOA: Yes, because they# don't know the legal Constitution.
AMNA NAWAZ: So, you're# saying they misunderstood it?
FELIX ULLOA: Absolutely, AM NA NAWAZ: Can I ask how you# would characterize the cu relationship between El Salvador and the U FELIX ULLOA: It's really, really# good.
We have an excelle And in the past, there were some# misunderstandings, because the type## of ambassadors that we had or the envoys from# the administration here, they Th ey didn't understand what was going on.
They# came, they were going to the backyard.
And that's## when the president said, no, you're not coming# to the backyard.
This is a sovereign country.
So, once we respect each other, the relations# are better.
I mean, for us, the Un is one of the most important allies that we have.# You know, our population, a fifth percent of our## population lives in the United States.
What we# want is to maintain a good relation with a state## which has our ally, our friends.
And we want --# as the president said, we want to be partners.
Let us treat as partners.
So, in doing that, to do# business, you have to maintain good relationship.## And that's we are maintaining now with this# U.S. administration and whatever could be## elected in November this year.
I mean, because# it's not a matter of political preference.
We're not Democrats.
We're# not Republicans.
We respect## any administration, any presidency# that is elected by American people.
AMNA NAWAZ: Vice President Felix Ulloa, thank# you so much for your time.
Really appreciate it.
FELIX ULLOA: My pleasure.