WEBVTT

00:01.933 --> 00:03.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
JOHN YANG: This past week,
the Biden administration
moved against China

00:03.966 --> 00:08.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
based firms and executives
blamed for importing
chemicals used to make the

00:08.033 --> 00:12.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
synthetic opioid fentanyl
which is up to 50 times
stronger than heroin. It's part

00:12.933 --> 00:17.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
of the government's effort
to disrupt the global
illegal drug trade and
stem the opioid epidemic.

00:19.833 --> 00:23.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
Ali Rogin spoke with
Vanda Felbab-Brown of the
Brookings Institution.

00:25.466 --> 00:27.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
ALI ROGIN: Vanda Felbab-Brown,
thank you so much for joining
us. Tell us about how

00:27.800 --> 00:32.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
Chinese entities are working
with Mexican drug cartels to
produce and distribute fentanyl.

00:34.833 --> 00:36.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
VANDA FELBAB-BROWN, The
Brookings Institute:
Well, thank you for
having me. China is the

00:36.900 --> 00:41.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
principal source of precursor
chemicals from which Mexican
cartels synthetize fentanyl. So

00:43.566 --> 00:48.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
various Chinese brokers
individuals, sometimes
larger family based
networks and companies

00:50.833 --> 00:55.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
produce and sell these
precursors to Mexico
often very knowingly
enabling the cartels in

00:58.733 --> 01:03.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
synthesizing fentanyl.
They even provide recipes
to the cartels how to
make fentanyl out of them.

01:05.566 --> 01:08.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
JOHN YANG: The Biden
administration has made
very clear that the actions

01:08.233 --> 01:12.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
that they've been taking over
the past few months are part
of a very deliberate effort

01:12.400 --> 01:17.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
to stop the global fentanyl
trade. Why is the U.S.
stepping up these actions now?

01:19.433 --> 01:22.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: Well for
well over a year we have had
no meaningful cooperation

01:22.533 --> 01:25.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
from the government of
China and frankly we have

01:25.266 --> 01:29.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
had minimal and in adequate
cooperation from the
government of Mexico as well.

01:29.900 --> 01:34.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
In 2018, 2019, we had
the height of China's
cooperation in trying to stop

01:36.933 --> 01:41.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
the flows of precursors and
fentanyl out of China. At
the time China scheduled the

01:43.433 --> 01:47.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
entire class of fentanyl
type drugs as a scheduled
substance, requiring

01:49.766 --> 01:54.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
that permits are obtained for
the production of fentanyl,
class drugs and their exports.

01:56.466 --> 02:00.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
And that's changed the patterns
of the illegal trade. Instead of

02:00.133 --> 02:03.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
fentanyl being shipped
directly to the United
States, these precursor

02:03.900 --> 02:08.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
chemicals would now be shipped
to Mexican cartels that
sanitize fentanyl from it.

02:10.933 --> 02:14.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
But after that China
has significantly scaled
back cooperation. Why?
Because it had expected

02:16.733 --> 02:20.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
that the Trump administration
would lessen the economic
tariffs on Chinese
goods. And then it

02:23.133 --> 02:26.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
expected that the Biden
administration will take
a softer geostrategic
approach to China neither

02:28.500 --> 02:33.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
happened. In fact, we have seen
significant increase in tensions
between the two countries,

02:34.800 --> 02:39.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
China in general
subordinates its law
enforcement cooperation with

02:39.266 --> 02:44.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
other countries to its
other objectives. And with
countries where the economic or

02:44.000 --> 02:49.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
geostrategic relationship is
not what it wants, it weakens or
altogether suspense cooperation.

02:50.966 --> 02:54.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
The Biden administration
has attempted to redress
this lack of cooperation in

02:56.500 --> 02:59.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
several ways. One is the set
of prosecutions that we are
seeing. They found an important

03:01.633 --> 03:05.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
way to get around the fact
that many of the precursors
being sold and legal

03:07.433 --> 03:11.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
nonscheduled chemicals.
It has also engaged
the Chinese government
when Secretary Blinken

03:13.066 --> 03:16.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
was in China in the spring,
the issue of fentanyl and
counter narcotics came up.

03:16.266 --> 03:19.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
And that seemed to be a hopeful
moment when Chinese officials,

03:19.833 --> 03:24.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
Chinese interlocutors started
looking back and reviving
the possibility of a joint

03:26.666 --> 03:30.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
fentanyl working group.
Certainly seeing that move
ahead would be important in July

03:32.633 --> 03:36.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
organizing the first summit
of a global coalition against
the threat of synthetic

03:36.200 --> 03:41.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
drugs. And hopefully this joint
international effort to put
pressure on China will pay off.

03:43.100 --> 03:45.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
ALI ROGIN: This is
also affecting the U.S.
relationship with Mexico.

03:45.733 --> 03:49.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
Attorney General Garland and
other senior U.S. officials
were in Mexico this week

03:49.633 --> 03:53.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
talking about this issue.
What is the role of the
Mexican government then?

03:53.866 --> 03:58.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: Well,
unfortunately, just as
with China, we also have
had really inadequate

03:58.366 --> 04:03.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
cooperation from the
government of Mexico ever since
President Andres Manuel Lopez

04:05.433 --> 04:09.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Obrador came to office
in Mexico, so much so
that even earlier this
year, in the spring,

04:11.000 --> 04:15.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
we have had President Lopez
Obrador making claims that
there is no fentanyl produced

04:15.300 --> 04:20.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
in Mexico, even though we
know that Mexico is the
predominant place that
fentanyl sympathized (ph).

04:22.333 --> 04:27.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
In recent weeks, there has
been more effort on the part
of the Mexican government to

04:29.433 --> 04:32.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
restart at least
some cooperation. And
the meeting that you
mentioned between Mexican

04:34.333 --> 04:37.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
officials and high level
U.S. officials is part of
that spirit to see whether

04:37.800 --> 04:42.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
we could get toward some
more meaningful corporations
that have been some progress.

04:44.733 --> 04:47.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
And most importantly,
the Mexican government
extradited Ovidio Guzman,

04:47.900 --> 04:52.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
one of the leaders of the
Sinaloa Cartel to the United
States, just in recent days.

04:54.933 --> 04:58.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
But we really need to get to a
space where U.S. law enforcement
agents can in the field operate

05:00.666 --> 05:05.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
with Mexican counterparts.
We don't have that right
now. We need to also get to a

05:05.333 --> 05:10.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
state where the Mexican
government is far more
willing to confront the
cartels than assaults.

05:12.300 --> 05:16.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
ALI ROGIN: What impact do these
announcements actually have
on the global fentanyl trade?

05:16.300 --> 05:21.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: I
do hope that at minimum,
they will help shrink the
pool of actors in China

05:23.800 --> 05:27.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
who are willing to violate
laws, at least U.S. laws
and international laws.
If instead of having

05:29.466 --> 05:33.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
thousands of potential
suppliers, we shrink
through these indictments
through deterrence,

05:35.600 --> 05:39.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
those who are willing to supply
to hundreds or tens. That's
an important accomplishment.

05:41.433 --> 05:45.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
Your question touches at the
core of what comes in narcotics
efforts have been grappling with

05:47.933 --> 05:51.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
over the past decades the so
called balloon effect, that
as long as demand persists,

05:53.100 --> 05:56.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
as someone will step in even if
production is suppressed in one
place, or precursor chemicals

05:58.433 --> 06:02.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
are suppressed in one
place, they will move to
another place. That will
be the reality with us.

06:04.266 --> 06:08.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70%
But the answer is not to
simply give up and allow
unmitigated supply to

06:08.833 --> 06:13.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
come. The lesser the supply,
the more the supply is
in places where we have

06:15.733 --> 06:20.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
good cooperation when network
networks can be dismantled,
the better off we are.

06:22.466 --> 06:25.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80%
ALI ROGIN: Vanda Felbab-Brown
with the Brookings Institution.
Thank you so much for your time.

06:25.800 --> 06:27.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
VANDA FELBAB-BROWN:
Thank you for having me.