1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:03,966 JOHN YANG: This past week, the Biden administration moved against China 2 00:00:03,966 --> 00:00:08,033 based firms and executives blamed for importing chemicals used to make the 3 00:00:08,033 --> 00:00:12,933 synthetic opioid fentanyl which is up to 50 times stronger than heroin. It's part 4 00:00:12,933 --> 00:00:17,933 of the government's effort to disrupt the global illegal drug trade and stem the opioid epidemic. 5 00:00:19,833 --> 00:00:23,533 Ali Rogin spoke with Vanda Felbab-Brown of the Brookings Institution. 6 00:00:25,466 --> 00:00:27,800 ALI ROGIN: Vanda Felbab-Brown, thank you so much for joining us. Tell us about how 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Chinese entities are working with Mexican drug cartels to produce and distribute fentanyl. 8 00:00:34,833 --> 00:00:36,900 VANDA FELBAB-BROWN, The Brookings Institute: Well, thank you for having me. China is the 9 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:41,533 principal source of precursor chemicals from which Mexican cartels synthetize fentanyl. So 10 00:00:43,566 --> 00:00:48,466 various Chinese brokers individuals, sometimes larger family based networks and companies 11 00:00:50,833 --> 00:00:55,800 produce and sell these precursors to Mexico often very knowingly enabling the cartels in 12 00:00:58,733 --> 00:01:03,700 synthesizing fentanyl. They even provide recipes to the cartels how to make fentanyl out of them. 13 00:01:05,566 --> 00:01:08,233 JOHN YANG: The Biden administration has made very clear that the actions 14 00:01:08,233 --> 00:01:12,400 that they've been taking over the past few months are part of a very deliberate effort 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,400 to stop the global fentanyl trade. Why is the U.S. stepping up these actions now? 16 00:01:19,433 --> 00:01:22,533 VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: Well for well over a year we have had no meaningful cooperation 17 00:01:22,533 --> 00:01:25,266 from the government of China and frankly we have 18 00:01:25,266 --> 00:01:29,900 had minimal and in adequate cooperation from the government of Mexico as well. 19 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:34,900 In 2018, 2019, we had the height of China's cooperation in trying to stop 20 00:01:36,933 --> 00:01:41,466 the flows of precursors and fentanyl out of China. At the time China scheduled the 21 00:01:43,433 --> 00:01:47,700 entire class of fentanyl type drugs as a scheduled substance, requiring 22 00:01:49,766 --> 00:01:54,100 that permits are obtained for the production of fentanyl, class drugs and their exports. 23 00:01:56,466 --> 00:02:00,133 And that's changed the patterns of the illegal trade. Instead of 24 00:02:00,133 --> 00:02:03,900 fentanyl being shipped directly to the United States, these precursor 25 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:08,900 chemicals would now be shipped to Mexican cartels that sanitize fentanyl from it. 26 00:02:10,933 --> 00:02:14,533 But after that China has significantly scaled back cooperation. Why? Because it had expected 27 00:02:16,733 --> 00:02:20,600 that the Trump administration would lessen the economic tariffs on Chinese goods. And then it 28 00:02:23,133 --> 00:02:26,533 expected that the Biden administration will take a softer geostrategic approach to China neither 29 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:33,033 happened. In fact, we have seen significant increase in tensions between the two countries, 30 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,266 China in general subordinates its law enforcement cooperation with 31 00:02:39,266 --> 00:02:44,000 other countries to its other objectives. And with countries where the economic or 32 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,000 geostrategic relationship is not what it wants, it weakens or altogether suspense cooperation. 33 00:02:50,966 --> 00:02:54,533 The Biden administration has attempted to redress this lack of cooperation in 34 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:59,666 several ways. One is the set of prosecutions that we are seeing. They found an important 35 00:03:01,633 --> 00:03:05,433 way to get around the fact that many of the precursors being sold and legal 36 00:03:07,433 --> 00:03:11,066 nonscheduled chemicals. It has also engaged the Chinese government when Secretary Blinken 37 00:03:13,066 --> 00:03:16,266 was in China in the spring, the issue of fentanyl and counter narcotics came up. 38 00:03:16,266 --> 00:03:19,833 And that seemed to be a hopeful moment when Chinese officials, 39 00:03:19,833 --> 00:03:24,833 Chinese interlocutors started looking back and reviving the possibility of a joint 40 00:03:26,666 --> 00:03:30,700 fentanyl working group. Certainly seeing that move ahead would be important in July 41 00:03:32,633 --> 00:03:36,200 organizing the first summit of a global coalition against the threat of synthetic 42 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:41,200 drugs. And hopefully this joint international effort to put pressure on China will pay off. 43 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:45,733 ALI ROGIN: This is also affecting the U.S. relationship with Mexico. 44 00:03:45,733 --> 00:03:49,633 Attorney General Garland and other senior U.S. officials were in Mexico this week 45 00:03:49,633 --> 00:03:53,866 talking about this issue. What is the role of the Mexican government then? 46 00:03:53,866 --> 00:03:58,366 VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: Well, unfortunately, just as with China, we also have had really inadequate 47 00:03:58,366 --> 00:04:03,333 cooperation from the government of Mexico ever since President Andres Manuel Lopez 48 00:04:05,433 --> 00:04:09,033 Obrador came to office in Mexico, so much so that even earlier this year, in the spring, 49 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,300 we have had President Lopez Obrador making claims that there is no fentanyl produced 50 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:20,300 in Mexico, even though we know that Mexico is the predominant place that fentanyl sympathized (ph). 51 00:04:22,333 --> 00:04:27,100 In recent weeks, there has been more effort on the part of the Mexican government to 52 00:04:29,433 --> 00:04:32,300 restart at least some cooperation. And the meeting that you mentioned between Mexican 53 00:04:34,333 --> 00:04:37,800 officials and high level U.S. officials is part of that spirit to see whether 54 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,800 we could get toward some more meaningful corporations that have been some progress. 55 00:04:44,733 --> 00:04:47,900 And most importantly, the Mexican government extradited Ovidio Guzman, 56 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:52,900 one of the leaders of the Sinaloa Cartel to the United States, just in recent days. 57 00:04:54,933 --> 00:04:58,700 But we really need to get to a space where U.S. law enforcement agents can in the field operate 58 00:05:00,666 --> 00:05:05,333 with Mexican counterparts. We don't have that right now. We need to also get to a 59 00:05:05,333 --> 00:05:10,333 state where the Mexican government is far more willing to confront the cartels than assaults. 60 00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:16,300 ALI ROGIN: What impact do these announcements actually have on the global fentanyl trade? 61 00:05:16,300 --> 00:05:21,300 VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: I do hope that at minimum, they will help shrink the pool of actors in China 62 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,066 who are willing to violate laws, at least U.S. laws and international laws. If instead of having 63 00:05:29,466 --> 00:05:33,666 thousands of potential suppliers, we shrink through these indictments through deterrence, 64 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,433 those who are willing to supply to hundreds or tens. That's an important accomplishment. 65 00:05:41,433 --> 00:05:45,866 Your question touches at the core of what comes in narcotics efforts have been grappling with 66 00:05:47,933 --> 00:05:51,066 over the past decades the so called balloon effect, that as long as demand persists, 67 00:05:53,100 --> 00:05:56,333 as someone will step in even if production is suppressed in one place, or precursor chemicals 68 00:05:58,433 --> 00:06:02,633 are suppressed in one place, they will move to another place. That will be the reality with us. 69 00:06:04,266 --> 00:06:08,833 But the answer is not to simply give up and allow unmitigated supply to 70 00:06:08,833 --> 00:06:13,833 come. The lesser the supply, the more the supply is in places where we have 71 00:06:15,733 --> 00:06:20,433 good cooperation when network networks can be dismantled, the better off we are. 72 00:06:22,466 --> 00:06:25,800 ALI ROGIN: Vanda Felbab-Brown with the Brookings Institution. Thank you so much for your time. 73 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,000 VANDA FELBAB-BROWN: Thank you for having me.