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JUDY WOODRUFF: Now we turn 
to our "NewsHour" Bookshelf.

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Jeffrey Brown recently visited Columbia 
University to talk with one professor

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whose new book pushes back on ideas that 
have gained popularity in recent years

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amid the ongoing national 
debate over race and racism.

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JEFFREY BROWN: The recent election results 
in Virginia, in which independent voters

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like these suburban women broke 
heavily for the Republican 
candidate, to John McWhorter,

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it was part of a growing backlash 
against one trend in American culture.

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JOHN MCWHORTER, Author, "Woke Racism": I 
don't see it as evidence of racism rearing

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its ugly head as usual. It's not 
a backlash against the racial 
reckoning. It's a backlash

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against a certain kind of racial reckoning 
that alarms people, with good reason.

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JEFFREY BROWN: McWhorter, a professor 
of linguistics at Columbia University

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and contributor to The New York Times,

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is one of today's sharpest critics of 
anti-racism theory, rhetoric and practice.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: I think that 
a real extreme point was 
hit in the summer of 2020,

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and that, at this point, everybody is 
rubbing their eyes and realizing that

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something went too far, not that 
there's something wrong with 
a racial reckoning in general,

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but that something went beyond 
what most even good people 
would consider sensible or fair.

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JEFFREY BROWN: His new book,

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"Woke Racism," pushes back against what he 
calls a new religion on the American left.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: I wanted to write a book 
explaining that this new version of what's

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being called anti-racism is actually very 
harmful, and sometimes even contemptuous

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of Black people, because, one, 
if I say it as a Black person,

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it's harder, not impossible, but harder to 
call me a racist or a white supremacist.

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And I also felt that I wanted 
to get my version of it out, the 
way I'd been thinking about it,

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because I got the strong feeling 
that a great many people, including 
Black ones, agree with me.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You're not 
denying that racism exists.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Not at all.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You're not denying 
that a kind of structure is 
in place that does harm people

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that has historical roots, that 
impacts individuals up to today?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Mm-hmm. I don't deny those 
things at all. There is personal racism,

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and then there's structural 
racism, although I wish 
people wouldn't call it that.

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I like to think of it as 
there are racial inequities.

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Some of them are due to racism. 
Sometimes, the racism is in the 
past, rather than the present.

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But I think calling it structural racism 
encourages a kind of oversimplification

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that discourages coming up with 
solutions that actually work.

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JEFFREY BROWN: The murder of George Floyd 
in 2020 led to protests in the streets

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and demands for a reckoning 
throughout American institutions.

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To McWhorter, who calls himself 
a liberal, the results have been 
largely performative on the part

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of many whites, and often 
harmful to Blacks, of whom, he 
contends, society expects less.

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Your sense is that 
anti-racism, as practiced,

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is itself a form of racism? That seems 
to be the strongest charge in the book.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: When you 
treat people with pity,

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when you tell people that they 
don't have to try as hard...

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JEFFREY BROWN: What does that mean? 
Let me stop you. Pity? Try as hard?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Sure.

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When your idea is that, 
because of a people's history,

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they are not subject to the 
same standards as everyone 
else, and so, if you say, it is

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racist to subject Black people 
to standardized tests because 
history makes it so that they're

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not as good at them, and, 
therefore, Black people don't 
get good at standardized tests,

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and run into them later, and, in 
the meantime, when you say Black 
people shouldn't have to take

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standardized tests, there's a short 
step from that to implying that 
Black people aren't as bright.

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And then somebody says, it looks 
like Black aren't as intelligent,

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and you say that they are racist. 
And everybody knows that there's 
a kind of double-talk going.

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I think Black people deserve better 
than that kind of societal dialogue.

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JEFFREY BROWN: He points to the 
influence of books such as Ibram X. 
Kendi's "How to Be an Antiracist"

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and Robin DiAngelo "White 
Fragility" -- both have been 
featured on the "NewsHour" -- which

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he believes overemphasize racial 
opposition and power hierarchies,

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a philosophy, he writes, 
seeping into American schools.

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I wondered if you're subject 
to the charge of overalarmist 
yourself. I mean, you write,

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"These people are coming after 
your kids," very strong language.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Everybody 
thinks I meant that as some kind 
of rhetoric. No, I meant it.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You meant it, as in?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: This is trickling 
into our educational curriculum.

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Now we have this whole debate 
over whether Critical Race 
Theory is being taught in the

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schools. Those obscure legal 
papers are not being taught in the 
schools. But something derived from

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that philosophy has become a major 
underpinning of what people are 
taught in schools of education.

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You teach white kids that 
they're potential oppressors. You 
teach Black kids that they are

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potentially oppressed people, 
that Black people and white people 
live in a kind of opposition,

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and that engagement with the 
world should be focused on 
battling power differentials,

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rather than power differentials and 
about eight or nine other things.

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JEFFREY BROWN: There is in 
this country what's called a 
reckoning, right, a rethinking.

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Doesn't this country need a reckoning, a 
rethinking around social justice issues?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: You know what? 
No. And it's not because I 
don't think a racial reckoning

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was necessary, but I think that 
this country's intellectual and 
moral culture had become much

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more mature about the nature of 
racism, including systemic racism, 
especially in the 2000 teens.

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I think a lot of this began with social 
media and the heightened awareness of the

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relationship between cops and young Black 
men. All of those things were happening.

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JEFFREY BROWN: What kind of 
reckoning would you like to see?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: I would like to see 
the reckoning we were having before.

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I guess that makes me a conservative. 
I'm talking about 2019. It used to be

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that being called a racist really 
didn't bother that many people.

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We tend to forget how much that 
changed by roughly about 1980. Now

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you are called a racist, it 
almost feels as bad as being 
called something like a pedophile.

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And that's good. It means that we 
have had a heightened awareness.

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That's part of a racial 
reckoning over decades,

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that a white person feels 
that to be a racist is one 
of the worst things on earth.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Now, he argues, 
things have gone too far,

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and he cites cases in which language 
has been proscribed or someone has

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lost a job or been publicly shamed for 
perceived racist remarks or behavior.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: What I'm talking 
about is a national trend that 
anybody who's awake can see.

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And it's not just cherry-picked examples.

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And one way that we know is that there's 
so much interest in this on the part

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of people who are left of 
center. It's not just FOX News.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You anticipated 
another response, critical 
response, of your book, which is:

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The real danger is on the right. The 
real danger is a threat to democracy.

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It's a threat to voting rights. 
It's banning books in schools.

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Do you see those as real dangers?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: They sure are, and 
also the ones that I'm bringing up.

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I think that the things going 
on, on the left are real, just as 
the things going on, on the right

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are real. I am saying what I think most 
enlightened people think, but that they're

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worried about saying, because, 
if you say it, you get called 
a white supremacist on Twitter.

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I don't care if somebody calls me a white

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supremacist on Twitter. And 
I'm going to keep writing.

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JEFFREY BROWN: All right, 
the book is "Woke Racism."

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John McWhorter, thank you very much.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Thank you, Jeffrey.