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JUDY WOODRUFF: Now we turn
to our "NewsHour" Bookshelf.

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Jeffrey Brown recently visited Columbia
University to talk with one professor

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whose new book pushes back on ideas that
have gained popularity in recent years

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amid the ongoing national
debate over race and racism.

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JEFFREY BROWN: The recent election results
in Virginia, in which independent voters

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like these suburban women broke
heavily for the Republican
candidate, to John McWhorter,

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it was part of a growing backlash
against one trend in American culture.

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JOHN MCWHORTER, Author, "Woke Racism": I
don't see it as evidence of racism rearing

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its ugly head as usual. It's not
a backlash against the racial
reckoning. It's a backlash

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against a certain kind of racial reckoning
that alarms people, with good reason.

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JEFFREY BROWN: McWhorter, a professor
of linguistics at Columbia University

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and contributor to The New York Times,

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is one of today's sharpest critics of
anti-racism theory, rhetoric and practice.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: I think that
a real extreme point was
hit in the summer of 2020,

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and that, at this point, everybody is
rubbing their eyes and realizing that

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something went too far, not that
there's something wrong with
a racial reckoning in general,

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but that something went beyond
what most even good people
would consider sensible or fair.

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JEFFREY BROWN: His new book,

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"Woke Racism," pushes back against what he
calls a new religion on the American left.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: I wanted to write a book
explaining that this new version of what's

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being called anti-racism is actually very
harmful, and sometimes even contemptuous

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of Black people, because, one,
if I say it as a Black person,

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it's harder, not impossible, but harder to
call me a racist or a white supremacist.

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And I also felt that I wanted
to get my version of it out, the
way I'd been thinking about it,

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because I got the strong feeling
that a great many people, including
Black ones, agree with me.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You're not
denying that racism exists.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Not at all.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You're not denying
that a kind of structure is
in place that does harm people

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that has historical roots, that
impacts individuals up to today?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Mm-hmm. I don't deny those
things at all. There is personal racism,

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and then there's structural
racism, although I wish
people wouldn't call it that.

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I like to think of it as
there are racial inequities.

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Some of them are due to racism.
Sometimes, the racism is in the
past, rather than the present.

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But I think calling it structural racism
encourages a kind of oversimplification

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that discourages coming up with
solutions that actually work.

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JEFFREY BROWN: The murder of George Floyd
in 2020 led to protests in the streets

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and demands for a reckoning
throughout American institutions.

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To McWhorter, who calls himself
a liberal, the results have been
largely performative on the part

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of many whites, and often
harmful to Blacks, of whom, he
contends, society expects less.

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Your sense is that
anti-racism, as practiced,

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is itself a form of racism? That seems
to be the strongest charge in the book.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: When you
treat people with pity,

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when you tell people that they
don't have to try as hard...

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JEFFREY BROWN: What does that mean?
Let me stop you. Pity? Try as hard?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Sure.

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When your idea is that,
because of a people's history,

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they are not subject to the
same standards as everyone
else, and so, if you say, it is

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racist to subject Black people
to standardized tests because
history makes it so that they're

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not as good at them, and,
therefore, Black people don't
get good at standardized tests,

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and run into them later, and, in
the meantime, when you say Black
people shouldn't have to take

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standardized tests, there's a short
step from that to implying that
Black people aren't as bright.

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And then somebody says, it looks
like Black aren't as intelligent,

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and you say that they are racist.
And everybody knows that there's
a kind of double-talk going.

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I think Black people deserve better
than that kind of societal dialogue.

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JEFFREY BROWN: He points to the
influence of books such as Ibram X.
Kendi's "How to Be an Antiracist"

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and Robin DiAngelo "White
Fragility" -- both have been
featured on the "NewsHour" -- which

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he believes overemphasize racial
opposition and power hierarchies,

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a philosophy, he writes,
seeping into American schools.

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I wondered if you're subject
to the charge of overalarmist
yourself. I mean, you write,

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"These people are coming after
your kids," very strong language.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Everybody
thinks I meant that as some kind
of rhetoric. No, I meant it.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You meant it, as in?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: This is trickling
into our educational curriculum.

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Now we have this whole debate
over whether Critical Race
Theory is being taught in the

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schools. Those obscure legal
papers are not being taught in the
schools. But something derived from

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that philosophy has become a major
underpinning of what people are
taught in schools of education.

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You teach white kids that
they're potential oppressors. You
teach Black kids that they are

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potentially oppressed people,
that Black people and white people
live in a kind of opposition,

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and that engagement with the
world should be focused on
battling power differentials,

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rather than power differentials and
about eight or nine other things.

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JEFFREY BROWN: There is in
this country what's called a
reckoning, right, a rethinking.

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Doesn't this country need a reckoning, a
rethinking around social justice issues?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: You know what?
No. And it's not because I
don't think a racial reckoning

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was necessary, but I think that
this country's intellectual and
moral culture had become much

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more mature about the nature of
racism, including systemic racism,
especially in the 2000 teens.

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I think a lot of this began with social
media and the heightened awareness of the

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relationship between cops and young Black
men. All of those things were happening.

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JEFFREY BROWN: What kind of
reckoning would you like to see?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: I would like to see
the reckoning we were having before.

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I guess that makes me a conservative.
I'm talking about 2019. It used to be

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that being called a racist really
didn't bother that many people.

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We tend to forget how much that
changed by roughly about 1980. Now

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you are called a racist, it
almost feels as bad as being
called something like a pedophile.

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And that's good. It means that we
have had a heightened awareness.

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That's part of a racial
reckoning over decades,

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that a white person feels
that to be a racist is one
of the worst things on earth.

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JEFFREY BROWN: Now, he argues,
things have gone too far,

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and he cites cases in which language
has been proscribed or someone has

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lost a job or been publicly shamed for
perceived racist remarks or behavior.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: What I'm talking
about is a national trend that
anybody who's awake can see.

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And it's not just cherry-picked examples.

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And one way that we know is that there's
so much interest in this on the part

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of people who are left of
center. It's not just FOX News.

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JEFFREY BROWN: You anticipated
another response, critical
response, of your book, which is:

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The real danger is on the right. The
real danger is a threat to democracy.

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It's a threat to voting rights.
It's banning books in schools.

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Do you see those as real dangers?

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JOHN MCWHORTER: They sure are, and
also the ones that I'm bringing up.

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I think that the things going
on, on the left are real, just as
the things going on, on the right

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are real. I am saying what I think most
enlightened people think, but that they're

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worried about saying, because,
if you say it, you get called
a white supremacist on Twitter.

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I don't care if somebody calls me a white

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supremacist on Twitter. And
I'm going to keep writing.

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JEFFREY BROWN: All right,
the book is "Woke Racism."

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John McWhorter, thank you very much.

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JOHN MCWHORTER: Thank you, Jeffrey.