JUDY WOODRUFF: And now at the
table with me here in our studio
for the hearings and remaining

with me now, John Carlin.

He ran the Justice
Department's National Security
Division from 2013 to 2016.

Before that, he served as
chief of staff to then FBI
Director Robert Mueller.

And Mary McCord, she was acting
head of the National Security
Division in 2016 and '17.

She is mentioned in Mueller's
report as part of the team
that went to the White House to

voice warnings about
former National Security
Adviser Michael Flynn.

They both have worked at
Justice in both Democratic and
Republican administrations.

Hello to both of you.

We have been together
all day long.

But let's try to sum it all up.

John Carlin, what, for
you, is the main takeaway?

We heard Robert Mueller saying
at several points today, it's
not normal for a prosecutor

to be testifying
before Congress.

JOHN CARLIN, Former
Justice Department
Official: That's right.

And you saw different agendas.

I think you saw the Democrats
trying to use this moment to
make the American people more

aware of certain parts of
the report and use it as
theater in that regard.

You saw the Republicans,
by and large, special in
the early morning, try
to attack the credibility

of Mr. Mueller and his team.

And you saw Mr. Mueller
with his agenda.

And his agenda, I think, was,
number one, to stick with the
Department of Justice guidance

in this unusual situation for
a prosecutor, and stick to the
four corners of the report,

number two, to defend his team
and come across credibly, and
not give either side a sound

bite, which I think
he did as well.

And, number three, you saw him
try to raise the alarm bell
about Russian interference.

And those words rare moments
where he was moved off-script
and beyond the four corners

of the report were all around
sounding that alarm bell on
Russian interference, expressing

displeasure and disbelief
that the president, along with
others, were welcoming foreign

interference, and pushing
back on attacks on his team.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And definitely
pushing back on attacks.

We heard some of that
in the sound bite that
we played earlier.

Mary McCord, he did try to
stick, as John said, within,
as we said, the four corners

of the report.

But there were these interesting
exchanges where he raised his
voice in saying the president

wasn't completely
credible in his answers.

MARY MCCORD, Former Justice
Department Official: I think one
of the sort of most memorable

parts of the day came toward the
very end, when Representative
Demings asked him a series

of questions about the
president's written
responses to questions.

And he was very pointed when
asked, first of all, did the
president always respond?

And his answer was, there
were many questions he
simply didn't answer.

He said true to that.

She asked, there were many
answers that contradicted
other evidence that
you accumulated during

your investigation.

And he said yes to that.

And then, pointedly, she asked,
isn't it fair to say that the
president's written answers

were not only inadequate and
incomplete, because he often
didn't answer, but that, when he

did answer, many of his answers
were not always truthful?

And, to that, Mr. Mueller took
a second of breath and said,
I would say, generally, so

agreeing really for
the first time publicly
that the president's
own written responses

not only contradicted
the facts developed
through the extensive
investigation, as shown

in these 448 pages, but
that they weren't always
truthful, in his opinion.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, John, does
that conform, do you think,
to what Robert Mueller wanted

to do when he came before the
members of Congress today?

JOHN CARLIN: I think the --
not being used by either side
and not creating a sound bite

was definitely a goal today,
and trying to put people's
attention back onto the report

that, as he said, was one
of the most thorough and
consistent reports in history.

And, in that way, if you read
the report, getting people's
focus on Russian interference,

I think Mary makes a
good point, though.

I'm not sure it was intentional,
that that exchange for me
as well was quite memorable,

that -- because it's not as
clear in the report what he said
today in the hearing about the

president's credibility.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mary, something
else that you and I were
discussing before we went on the

air again tonight has to do with
what Robert Mueller's mission
was and whether he did or

didn't find President
Trump guilty of a crime.

MARY MCCORD: Or
charged with a crime.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

Right.

MARY MCCORD: So, I think one of
the unfortunate misimpressions
or misdirections from all of

the discussion about the Mueller
report has been the focus
on whether a crime occurred.

And that's partly because, as
a result of the special counsel
regulations, he was required

to submit a confidential report
to the attorney general, which
we call in prosecution, DOJ

circles, a prosecution memo,
which has to recommend either
prosecution or declination.

So that caused him -- and he
answered this at one point
during the testimony -- to focus

on whether crimes
were committed.

But his actual appointment only
had sort of as an afterthought
the fact that he could

pursue criminal
charges, if appropriate.

The actual mandate was to see
if there were any links or
coordination between members

of the Trump campaign and
the Russian government.

And, certainly, part one shows
all kinds of links . And I think
these might -- these didn't

get to the point of a chargeable
offense, but what Americans
should be very concerned

about is, again -- and I think
Representative Schiff went
through this very nicely in his

- - in his very first set
of questions -- Russia made
outreach to the campaign.

The campaign welcomed
that outreach.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

MARY MCCORD: Trump Jr.
said, we delight in it.

Trump called on the Russians
to hack into the e-mails.

He called on -- he
praised WikiLeaks for
what WikiLeaks was doing.

The campaign planned their press
strategy around the hacking
and the disclosure of e-mails,

and that then, apart from
helping Trump win, people in
his orbit, in his campaign also

had a financial motive,
including himself,
Manafort, Flynn, Trump, and
that, when investigated,

they lied about it.

So that might not equal
conspiracy under the
law for a prosecution,
but it's a whole lot

of links.

It's a whole lot of
unethical and un-American
and undemocratic behavior.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And thank you
for correcting me when I was
referring to not finding him

guilty, but charging him
one way or another...

MARY MCCORD: Charging.

JUDY WOODRUFF: ... which
was within the purview
of what he was doing.

John Carlin, there were
also parts of -- parts
of his testimony that
gave us an understanding

of how frustrating it was for
him that he never was able
to sit down with President

Trump, that that just didn't
happen, despite more than a
year of trying to get the White

House to agree to this.

JOHN CARLIN: Yes, he really
did walk through that in detail
in a series of exchanges and,

in that exchange, explained
that, in some ways, that
made the investigation
more difficult,

to not be able to sit down and
ask the president questions.

And that's what I think led
to the exchange as well where
the written answers for the

questions that were answered,
where he said, very remarkably,
I think, when referring to

the written answers under oath
from the president of the United
States, he said that they were

not consistent with the evidence
that they found in the report.

JUDY WOODRUFF: It was a direct
answer to questions about, did
you get the answers -- how much

more did you want to know from
the president that you weren't
able to get, in essence,

was what the members
were trying to get.

So, Mary McCord, John
Carlin, thank you both.

MARY MCCORD: Thank you.

JOHN CARLIN: Thank you.