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JUDY WOODRUFF: And now at the
table with me here in our studio
for the hearings and remaining

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with me now, John Carlin.

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He ran the Justice
Department's National Security
Division from 2013 to 2016.

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Before that, he served as
chief of staff to then FBI
Director Robert Mueller.

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And Mary McCord, she was acting
head of the National Security
Division in 2016 and '17.

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She is mentioned in Mueller's
report as part of the team
that went to the White House to

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voice warnings about
former National Security
Adviser Michael Flynn.

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They both have worked at
Justice in both Democratic and
Republican administrations.

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Hello to both of you.

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We have been together
all day long.

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But let's try to sum it all up.

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John Carlin, what, for
you, is the main takeaway?

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We heard Robert Mueller saying
at several points today, it's
not normal for a prosecutor

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to be testifying
before Congress.

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JOHN CARLIN, Former
Justice Department
Official: That's right.

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And you saw different agendas.

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I think you saw the Democrats
trying to use this moment to
make the American people more

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aware of certain parts of
the report and use it as
theater in that regard.

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You saw the Republicans,
by and large, special in
the early morning, try
to attack the credibility

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of Mr. Mueller and his team.

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And you saw Mr. Mueller
with his agenda.

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And his agenda, I think, was,
number one, to stick with the
Department of Justice guidance

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in this unusual situation for
a prosecutor, and stick to the
four corners of the report,

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number two, to defend his team
and come across credibly, and
not give either side a sound

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bite, which I think
he did as well.

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And, number three, you saw him
try to raise the alarm bell
about Russian interference.

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And those words rare moments
where he was moved off-script
and beyond the four corners

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of the report were all around
sounding that alarm bell on
Russian interference, expressing

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displeasure and disbelief
that the president, along with
others, were welcoming foreign

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interference, and pushing
back on attacks on his team.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: And definitely
pushing back on attacks.

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We heard some of that
in the sound bite that
we played earlier.

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Mary McCord, he did try to
stick, as John said, within,
as we said, the four corners

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of the report.

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But there were these interesting
exchanges where he raised his
voice in saying the president

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wasn't completely
credible in his answers.

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MARY MCCORD, Former Justice
Department Official: I think one
of the sort of most memorable

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parts of the day came toward the
very end, when Representative
Demings asked him a series

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of questions about the
president's written
responses to questions.

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And he was very pointed when
asked, first of all, did the
president always respond?

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And his answer was, there
were many questions he
simply didn't answer.

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He said true to that.

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She asked, there were many
answers that contradicted
other evidence that
you accumulated during

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your investigation.

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And he said yes to that.

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And then, pointedly, she asked,
isn't it fair to say that the
president's written answers

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were not only inadequate and
incomplete, because he often
didn't answer, but that, when he

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did answer, many of his answers
were not always truthful?

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And, to that, Mr. Mueller took
a second of breath and said,
I would say, generally, so

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agreeing really for
the first time publicly
that the president's
own written responses

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not only contradicted
the facts developed
through the extensive
investigation, as shown

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in these 448 pages, but
that they weren't always
truthful, in his opinion.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: And, John, does
that conform, do you think,
to what Robert Mueller wanted

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to do when he came before the
members of Congress today?

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JOHN CARLIN: I think the --
not being used by either side
and not creating a sound bite

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was definitely a goal today,
and trying to put people's
attention back onto the report

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that, as he said, was one
of the most thorough and
consistent reports in history.

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And, in that way, if you read
the report, getting people's
focus on Russian interference,

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I think Mary makes a
good point, though.

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I'm not sure it was intentional,
that that exchange for me
as well was quite memorable,

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that -- because it's not as
clear in the report what he said
today in the hearing about the

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president's credibility.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: Mary, something
else that you and I were
discussing before we went on the

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air again tonight has to do with
what Robert Mueller's mission
was and whether he did or

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didn't find President
Trump guilty of a crime.

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MARY MCCORD: Or
charged with a crime.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

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Right.

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MARY MCCORD: So, I think one of
the unfortunate misimpressions
or misdirections from all of

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the discussion about the Mueller
report has been the focus
on whether a crime occurred.

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And that's partly because, as
a result of the special counsel
regulations, he was required

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to submit a confidential report
to the attorney general, which
we call in prosecution, DOJ

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circles, a prosecution memo,
which has to recommend either
prosecution or declination.

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So that caused him -- and he
answered this at one point
during the testimony -- to focus

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on whether crimes
were committed.

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But his actual appointment only
had sort of as an afterthought
the fact that he could

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pursue criminal
charges, if appropriate.

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The actual mandate was to see
if there were any links or
coordination between members

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of the Trump campaign and
the Russian government.

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And, certainly, part one shows
all kinds of links . And I think
these might -- these didn't

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get to the point of a chargeable
offense, but what Americans
should be very concerned

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about is, again -- and I think
Representative Schiff went
through this very nicely in his

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- - in his very first set
of questions -- Russia made
outreach to the campaign.

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The campaign welcomed
that outreach.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

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MARY MCCORD: Trump Jr.
said, we delight in it.

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Trump called on the Russians
to hack into the e-mails.

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He called on -- he
praised WikiLeaks for
what WikiLeaks was doing.

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The campaign planned their press
strategy around the hacking
and the disclosure of e-mails,

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and that then, apart from
helping Trump win, people in
his orbit, in his campaign also

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had a financial motive,
including himself,
Manafort, Flynn, Trump, and
that, when investigated,

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they lied about it.

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So that might not equal
conspiracy under the
law for a prosecution,
but it's a whole lot

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of links.

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It's a whole lot of
unethical and un-American
and undemocratic behavior.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: And thank you
for correcting me when I was
referring to not finding him

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guilty, but charging him
one way or another...

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MARY MCCORD: Charging.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: ... which
was within the purview
of what he was doing.

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John Carlin, there were
also parts of -- parts
of his testimony that
gave us an understanding

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of how frustrating it was for
him that he never was able
to sit down with President

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Trump, that that just didn't
happen, despite more than a
year of trying to get the White

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House to agree to this.

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JOHN CARLIN: Yes, he really
did walk through that in detail
in a series of exchanges and,

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in that exchange, explained
that, in some ways, that
made the investigation
more difficult,

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to not be able to sit down and
ask the president questions.

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And that's what I think led
to the exchange as well where
the written answers for the

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questions that were answered,
where he said, very remarkably,
I think, when referring to

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the written answers under oath
from the president of the United
States, he said that they were

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not consistent with the evidence
that they found in the report.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: It was a direct
answer to questions about, did
you get the answers -- how much

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more did you want to know from
the president that you weren't
able to get, in essence,

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was what the members
were trying to get.

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So, Mary McCord, John
Carlin, thank you both.

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MARY MCCORD: Thank you.

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JOHN CARLIN: Thank you.