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JUDY WOODRUFF: And now at the 
table with me here in our studio 
for the hearings and remaining

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with me now, John Carlin.

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He ran the Justice 
Department's National Security 
Division from 2013 to 2016.

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Before that, he served as 
chief of staff to then FBI 
Director Robert Mueller.

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And Mary McCord, she was acting 
head of the National Security 
Division in 2016 and '17.

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She is mentioned in Mueller's 
report as part of the team 
that went to the White House to

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voice warnings about 
former National Security 
Adviser Michael Flynn.

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They both have worked at 
Justice in both Democratic and 
Republican administrations.

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Hello to both of you.

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We have been together 
all day long.

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But let's try to sum it all up.

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John Carlin, what, for 
you, is the main takeaway?

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We heard Robert Mueller saying 
at several points today, it's 
not normal for a prosecutor

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to be testifying 
before Congress.

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JOHN CARLIN, Former 
Justice Department 
Official: That's right.

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And you saw different agendas.

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I think you saw the Democrats 
trying to use this moment to 
make the American people more

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aware of certain parts of 
the report and use it as 
theater in that regard.

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You saw the Republicans, 
by and large, special in 
the early morning, try 
to attack the credibility

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of Mr. Mueller and his team.

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And you saw Mr. Mueller 
with his agenda.

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And his agenda, I think, was, 
number one, to stick with the 
Department of Justice guidance

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in this unusual situation for 
a prosecutor, and stick to the 
four corners of the report,

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number two, to defend his team 
and come across credibly, and 
not give either side a sound

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bite, which I think 
he did as well.

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And, number three, you saw him 
try to raise the alarm bell 
about Russian interference.

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And those words rare moments 
where he was moved off-script 
and beyond the four corners

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of the report were all around 
sounding that alarm bell on 
Russian interference, expressing

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displeasure and disbelief 
that the president, along with 
others, were welcoming foreign

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interference, and pushing 
back on attacks on his team.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: And definitely 
pushing back on attacks.

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We heard some of that 
in the sound bite that 
we played earlier.

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Mary McCord, he did try to 
stick, as John said, within, 
as we said, the four corners

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of the report.

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But there were these interesting 
exchanges where he raised his 
voice in saying the president

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wasn't completely 
credible in his answers.

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MARY MCCORD, Former Justice 
Department Official: I think one 
of the sort of most memorable

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parts of the day came toward the 
very end, when Representative 
Demings asked him a series

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of questions about the 
president's written 
responses to questions.

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And he was very pointed when 
asked, first of all, did the 
president always respond?

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And his answer was, there 
were many questions he 
simply didn't answer.

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He said true to that.

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She asked, there were many 
answers that contradicted 
other evidence that 
you accumulated during

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your investigation.

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And he said yes to that.

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And then, pointedly, she asked, 
isn't it fair to say that the 
president's written answers

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were not only inadequate and 
incomplete, because he often 
didn't answer, but that, when he

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did answer, many of his answers 
were not always truthful?

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And, to that, Mr. Mueller took 
a second of breath and said, 
I would say, generally, so

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agreeing really for 
the first time publicly 
that the president's 
own written responses

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not only contradicted 
the facts developed 
through the extensive 
investigation, as shown

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in these 448 pages, but 
that they weren't always 
truthful, in his opinion.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: And, John, does 
that conform, do you think, 
to what Robert Mueller wanted

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to do when he came before the 
members of Congress today?

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JOHN CARLIN: I think the -- 
not being used by either side 
and not creating a sound bite

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was definitely a goal today, 
and trying to put people's 
attention back onto the report

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that, as he said, was one 
of the most thorough and 
consistent reports in history.

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And, in that way, if you read 
the report, getting people's 
focus on Russian interference,

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I think Mary makes a 
good point, though.

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I'm not sure it was intentional, 
that that exchange for me 
as well was quite memorable,

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that -- because it's not as 
clear in the report what he said 
today in the hearing about the

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president's credibility.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: Mary, something 
else that you and I were 
discussing before we went on the

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air again tonight has to do with 
what Robert Mueller's mission 
was and whether he did or

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didn't find President 
Trump guilty of a crime.

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MARY MCCORD: Or 
charged with a crime.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

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Right.

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MARY MCCORD: So, I think one of 
the unfortunate misimpressions 
or misdirections from all of

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the discussion about the Mueller 
report has been the focus 
on whether a crime occurred.

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And that's partly because, as 
a result of the special counsel 
regulations, he was required

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to submit a confidential report 
to the attorney general, which 
we call in prosecution, DOJ

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circles, a prosecution memo, 
which has to recommend either 
prosecution or declination.

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So that caused him -- and he 
answered this at one point 
during the testimony -- to focus

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on whether crimes 
were committed.

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But his actual appointment only 
had sort of as an afterthought 
the fact that he could

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pursue criminal 
charges, if appropriate.

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The actual mandate was to see 
if there were any links or 
coordination between members

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of the Trump campaign and 
the Russian government.

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And, certainly, part one shows 
all kinds of links . And I think 
these might -- these didn't

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get to the point of a chargeable 
offense, but what Americans 
should be very concerned

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about is, again -- and I think 
Representative Schiff went 
through this very nicely in his

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- - in his very first set 
of questions -- Russia made 
outreach to the campaign.

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The campaign welcomed 
that outreach.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

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MARY MCCORD: Trump Jr. 
said, we delight in it.

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Trump called on the Russians 
to hack into the e-mails.

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He called on -- he 
praised WikiLeaks for 
what WikiLeaks was doing.

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The campaign planned their press 
strategy around the hacking 
and the disclosure of e-mails,

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and that then, apart from 
helping Trump win, people in 
his orbit, in his campaign also

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had a financial motive, 
including himself, 
Manafort, Flynn, Trump, and 
that, when investigated,

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they lied about it.

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So that might not equal 
conspiracy under the 
law for a prosecution, 
but it's a whole lot

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of links.

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It's a whole lot of 
unethical and un-American 
and undemocratic behavior.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: And thank you 
for correcting me when I was 
referring to not finding him

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guilty, but charging him 
one way or another...

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MARY MCCORD: Charging.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: ... which 
was within the purview 
of what he was doing.

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John Carlin, there were 
also parts of -- parts 
of his testimony that 
gave us an understanding

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of how frustrating it was for 
him that he never was able 
to sit down with President

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Trump, that that just didn't 
happen, despite more than a 
year of trying to get the White

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House to agree to this.

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JOHN CARLIN: Yes, he really 
did walk through that in detail 
in a series of exchanges and,

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in that exchange, explained 
that, in some ways, that 
made the investigation 
more difficult,

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to not be able to sit down and 
ask the president questions.

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And that's what I think led 
to the exchange as well where 
the written answers for the

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questions that were answered, 
where he said, very remarkably, 
I think, when referring to

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the written answers under oath 
from the president of the United 
States, he said that they were

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not consistent with the evidence 
that they found in the report.

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JUDY WOODRUFF: It was a direct 
answer to questions about, did 
you get the answers -- how much

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more did you want to know from 
the president that you weren't 
able to get, in essence,

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was what the members 
were trying to get.

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So, Mary McCord, John 
Carlin, thank you both.

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MARY MCCORD: Thank you.

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JOHN CARLIN: Thank you.