JUDY WOODRUFF: And now we
turn to the political analysis
of Shields and Brooks.

That is syndicated columnist
Mark Shields and New York
Times columnist David Brooks.

Hello to both of you.

Let's start with our
lead story tonight.

And that is the whistle-blower
from the intelligence community.

The word gets out -- or this
person is alleging that he that
the president, in a conversation

with -- now we think it's the
president of Ukraine, urged
the president of Ukraine, Mark,

to investigate Joe Biden's son.

And we have a -- there's still
no -- the president denies it,
and others do, but now we have

several news outlets
backing up the story.

And I was just handed --
and you have seen it --
a statement by Joe Biden.

He says: "If these reports are
true, there's truly no bottom
to President Trump's willingness

to abuse his power
and abuse our country.

This behavior is particularly
abhorrent because it
exploits the foreign
policy of our country

and undermines our
national security for
political purposes."

How seriously should we be
taking these allegations?

MARK SHIELDS: I think
they're enormously serious.

And the fact that The Wall
Street Journal is leading
this story, along with The New

York Times and The Washington
Post, but this is not false or
fake news or anything of the

sort.

It's not a political
vendetta of any sort.

And this is quite beyond a
Playboy model or a frat party at
an Ivy League school or anything

of the sort.

This is really serious.

This is totally exploiting
the national security,
putting at risk the
national security of the

United States for narrow
political, personal
interests, if, in fact,
the reports are true.

And I guess the most
disturbing thing to me,
Judy, was the president
accused the whistle-blower,

who, at enormous risk, and
it required considerable
courage, of being an
extreme partisan, which

means, A, that somebody
in the White House knows
who the whistle-blower is.

This is mafia-like threats.

We know who you are.

And they have investigated
his political affiliation or
her political affiliation.

I mean, so, I think
it's enormously grave.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, in fact,
the president - - David, the
president was saying today to

the television cameras that
people in the White House
were making fun of all this.

Are we looking at something
where it's going to
be a he said/he said
situation going forward?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, presumably,
the call was listened to
by others and recorded.

So, I'm not sure it was
recorded, but it was
certainly listened to.

These calls are not -- it's
not just a one-on-one call.

There's people on the line.

You know, I think
it is pretty grave.

Most presidents go into the
White House thinking, I'm here
to serve the office, I'm here to

serve America.

Donald Trump is using America
to serve him and American
foreign policy to serve him.

And most presidents go into
the office thinking that the
phrase my fellow Americans means

something and that we have
greater loyalty to our fellow
Americans than we do the people

in outside countries.

And he's basically using
another country to be oppo
research on his fellow American.

And I think this rises
to more a level -- I'm
not sure this really is
foundationally changing,

but it rises to a different
revel, if there's a connection
between the foreign aid and the

promise.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

DAVID BROOKS: That really
is using -- suborning
U.S. government money
for your own private

gain.

And that's clearly
corruption of a high order.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, as
both of you are saying,
Mark, we don't know for a
fact that this happened.

But the evidence is
now building, the
reporting is building.

And there are two strands.

It is urging the leader of
another country to get involved
in a political campaign, but

then the quid pro
quo, potentially.

MARK SHIELDS: No, exactly, Judy.

To say, look, be in touch with
my Dr. Dirt, my oppo research
guy, who once was America's

mayor and is now
doing smear jobs.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Rudy Giuliani.

MARK SHIELDS: Rudy Giuliani.

How the mighty have fallen to
that point where he's an errand
boy to be a hit man on political

opponents.

No, David put it very well.

I mean, this is a total, total
corruption of the -- if it's
valid and if it's accurate

- - and I think that the news
reports are done very soberly,
quite honestly, because they

take their position --
their mission seriously.

If it's true, Judy,
then I don't see how the
Democrats can back off on
impeachment investigation.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And I want to
ask you about that because
this week, David, as both of

you have pointed
out, the president's
lawyers were in court.

They were arguing against a
New York lawsuit, an attempt to
get the president's tax returns

to be turned over,
to be made public.

And the president's lawyers are
saying you can't investigate a
president while he's sitting

in office.

What we're learning today in
these reports about Ukraine
raise questions about that.

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, this was
the Nixon defense with David
Frost, that, if a president does

it, it's not illegal.

And it didn't work for Nixon.

I'm not sure it
would work for here.

I mean, a basic principle
of our government is that
no person is above the law.

And so I don't think
that will work.

I am struck -- I do think, if
there's a link to the foreign
aid, the Democrats obviously

have to launch a different
and new investigation.

I'm struck mostly by,
when President Trump
does something out in the
open, or Rudy Giuliani

does something out in the
open, like, it doesn't
become a big thing.

Now that we have
something secret that
the press have uncovered,
suddenly, it blows up.

But Giuliani wasn't
shy about this.

And the fall of Giuliani is one
of the great stories of our age.

I covered him a lot when he
was mayor, extremely brilliant,
extremely sharp, not the man I

see today.

The one continuity is that he
would sit around with his staff
and watch "The Godfather" movies

over and over again.

MARK SHIELDS: Wow.

DAVID BROOKS: And the
mob behavior -- this
really is mob behavior.

It's like, let's dig
up dirt on this guy.

That's the way it strikes
me, more than anything else.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, and, again,
Mark, with these -- with the
president's lawyers fighting

back, which they have
been -- they have been
fighting all these attempts
to get any information

turned over.

MARK SHIELDS: Right.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But this is
the first time we have heard
them argue a president can't

be investigated.

MARK SHIELDS: Can't
be investigated.

I agree with David
about the Nixon defense.

Nixon, of course, invoked
that defense in 1977, three
years after he had been forced

out, in an interview
with David Frost.

But no president -- he did
prove that, and by his own
statement and his own actions,

that no president
can be above the law.

And, no, I really think
the gravity of this is yet
to be fully appreciated.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The major --
other major story we're watching
very closely this week, David,

of course, is the -- in
the aftermath of the attack
on the Saudi oil complex
and the administration

pointing fingers immediately
at Iran, although, so far,
we don't have absolute proof.

I'm told there's just been
a press conference at the
Department of Defense.

The defense secretary,
Esper, is saying everything
we have now points to Iran.

President Trump's response
has been first to talk about
being locked and loaded and

we could do whatever we wanted
to Iran, but, on the other
hand, today and at intervals

this past week, saying, no,
that's not what we want.

We don't want war with Iran.

What do we make of
this American response?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.

Well, you know, this
happens in the Middle East.

And all arrows do point to Iran.

I mean, Iran has been clearly
ramping up their terror activity
toward the Saudis over the

last several months with a
bunch of these missile attacks.

Secondly, the fact that these
attacks, somehow, they did it
-- a sophisticated enough weapon

to get through.

No American missile
base saw them.

There are a lot of American
bases in the region.

And so that suggests it
was something more than
just a small rebel army.

It was a really
sophisticated attack.

And so what's happening is,
Iran is clearly testing to see
what it can get away with in

order to intimidate the Saudis.

And the Saudis know
they're very vulnerable
to this kind of attack.

They're trying to sell
their oil company.

The oil markets are
their bread and butter.

And Iran is the country that
is hegemonic or trying to
be hegemonic in the region.

And they have got an ideology
they're trying to export.

And so I think Trump is actually
playing it reasonably well.

I mean, it's a chess match,
where they launch something, and
then we try to frighten them,

or we try to put some
economic sanctions on them.

And so Trump is pushing
back without going crazy.

And so he's not being violent.

And so far, I think he's
playing the game as -- sort
of as well as you can do under

in the circumstance.

JUDY WOODRUFF: He's
handling it well?

MARK SHIELDS: He's not being
violent, but I think we have
to say that we are where we

are today with Iran
because of Donald Trump.

Donald Trump withdrew, on
political grounds alone -- that
was his only basis, that Barack

Obama had negotiated that
agreement, the nuclear
agreement, with the
Iranians, with the United

States, and U.K., and
Russia, China, Germany,
France, put it all together.

There were 98 percent
reduction in their capacity.

They were open to inspection.

And he withdrew, and there
was nothing to replace it.

He has no coalition partners.

He has lost his coalition.

We are now standing, waiting
for the judgment of the Saudi
prince as to whether we go to

- - send Americans to war.

I mean, what are our shared
values with the Saudis?

I missed those.

Are they freedom of press,
religion, assembly, rule of law?

Is there anything?

I think what we have
seen is that -- the
limitations of budget
defense sales to a country.

I mean, Trump boasts over the
fact we have sold $4 billion.

They have the fifth largest
defense budget in the world,
the Saudis do, and they can't

even defend themselves.

And, you know, they are
overbuilt, they're overmuscled.

And David's right.

We're not going to win this.

And the Iranians know we're
not going to -- President Trump
doesn't want to go to war.

I don't say -- accuse
him of being a warmonger.

And he doesn't want to go to
war because 2020 is coming up,
and a war in the Middle East

is about the last thing in
the world any president wants.

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.

I...

(CROSSTALK)

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, I should
add, I just was told another
comment from the defense

secretary just now.

He said: "We will send" --
the U.S. will send some troops
to the region, but he said it

won't be in the thousands.

DAVID BROOKS: Right.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So we don't
know what that means, but it's
a half-step, David, I think.

(CROSSTALK)

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.

This is what -- you
do this, I do this.

We are signaling to each other.

It's a dance.

I think the Iranians
probably know Trump is
not going to do anything.

He's going to send a signal,
but he's not going to -- he
doesn't want to go to war,

so they do have the
upper hand on this.

One area where I
disagree with Mark...

MARK SHIELDS: OK.

DAVID BROOKS: ... is, I don't
think this is entirely due to
the Iranian nuclear deal being

canceled.

The critics of that deal, even
before it was accepted, said
the problem is that Iran has

two bad things.

They're doing the nuclear
program, but the terror
in the region program.

And many people criticized that
deal because it did nothing
to address Iran's terror in

the region program.

And that's what this
is a continuation of.

It may be ramped up a little,
but they have been doing this
sort of thing for -- well,

since 1979.

MARK SHIELDS: Yes.

I mean, I'm not here as
an apologist for Iran.

I'm saying there was a coherent
coalition to contain and to
limit Iranian activity and

Iranian negative influence.

And I believe it was
working, and that there
is now no substitute is
exactly like his health

care plan.

0
There is no substitute.

I mean, dismantle what is there,
and replace it with nothing.

And I honestly think --
there's no one-off with Iran.

I mean, Iran has
got Syria bases.

Iran has opportunities
to perplex and torment us
in all kinds of places.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well,
and this story is -- now
we're a week into it,
but it looks as if we're

about to see the next phase
with the announcement of troops
going into -- more troops going

into the region.

Mark Shields, David
Brooks, thank you.

MARK SHIELDS: Thank you.