1 00:00:01,900 --> 00:00:04,300 GEOFF BENNETT: Recent history suggests new gun reforms are more likely to emerge 2 00:00:04,300 --> 00:00:07,433 out of statehouses, rather than Washington, D.C. 3 00:00:07,433 --> 00:00:09,366 Over the coming days, we will explore some 4 00:00:09,366 --> 00:00:13,500 of the proposed and recently enacted policy experiments across the states. 5 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,400 William Brangham begins our coverage with an examination 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,866 of extreme risk prevention orders, more commonly known as red flag laws. 7 00:00:20,866 --> 00:00:25,200 The measures, which are in use in 19 states, allow guns to be temporarily 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:30,200 seized if family or law enforcement believes someone is a risk to themselves or to others. 9 00:00:32,166 --> 00:00:35,300 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: On New Year's Eve four years ago, a sheriff's deputy was shot 10 00:00:37,333 --> 00:00:40,133 and killed in a suburb south of Denver by a man suffering serious mental distress. 11 00:00:42,033 --> 00:00:45,466 That killing prompted a Republican state representative to introduce a red flag law 12 00:00:45,466 --> 00:00:50,266 in the Colorado legislature. But that lawmaker then came under attack from a conservative 13 00:00:50,266 --> 00:00:55,033 gun rights group. His law didn't pass, and the representative lost his next election. 14 00:00:56,500 --> 00:00:58,966 His name is Cole Wist. He's now a lawyer in private practice. 15 00:00:58,966 --> 00:01:00,933 And he joins me now from Colorado. 16 00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:03,433 Cole, great to have you on the "NewsHour." 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,033 Just playing off this example that motivated you to introduce this bill, 18 00:01:09,033 --> 00:01:14,033 can you help us understand how your law would have worked? Who contacts the authorities? Who 19 00:01:16,166 --> 00:01:19,833 judges this? Who makes the decision that it's OK that someone should have their guns taken? 20 00:01:19,833 --> 00:01:23,733 FMR. STATE REP. COLE WIST (R-CO): Well, good evening, William. It's great to be with you. 21 00:01:23,733 --> 00:01:28,733 I will talk about how this would have played out under the 2018 bill that I introduced. And 22 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:34,833 that is that the family members or law enforcement could apply for an extreme risk protection order. 23 00:01:38,700 --> 00:01:43,700 And they would swear out an affidavit, submit that to a judge. And if the judge agreed that it met 24 00:01:45,933 --> 00:01:50,900 a threshold determination that the individual posed a risk to himself or herself or others, 25 00:01:52,966 --> 00:01:56,100 then the judge could issue a temporary order 26 00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:59,833 that would allow law enforcement to remove firearms from that individual. 27 00:02:01,933 --> 00:02:05,466 Under our bill in 2018, there was a three-day period that the court would then hear whether or 28 00:02:08,533 --> 00:02:13,533 not that order would be made permanent. And we had a very high level of due process that was required 29 00:02:16,066 --> 00:02:20,100 to be met by the movement, by the movement, or the person that was seeking the protective order. 30 00:02:21,433 --> 00:02:24,533 And under our bill, the person seeking to remove 31 00:02:24,533 --> 00:02:27,900 those firearms would have to -- would have had to have proven 32 00:02:27,900 --> 00:02:32,900 beyond a reasonable doubt that that individual posed a risk to themselves or others, and that 33 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:38,300 removal of weapons from that person's possession was necessary to accomplish those means. 34 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:42,800 There then would have been an opportunity, if the order was granted, 35 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,700 six months later to then consider whether or not that order should be renewed 36 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:51,866 or dissolved, and the person could receive their firearms back. 37 00:02:51,866 --> 00:02:56,433 In the version of the bill that passed in 2019, those periods were extended quite a bit, 38 00:02:56,433 --> 00:03:01,400 in fact, doubled to 364 days, if an ERPO is entered against someone. 39 00:03:02,766 --> 00:03:04,866 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So you were a Republican legislator, 40 00:03:06,866 --> 00:03:09,500 a strong supporter of the Second Amendment, and yet this conservative gun rights group 41 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:13,500 came after you. They called you a gun grabber. They called you Cole the mole. 42 00:03:16,033 --> 00:03:19,333 And they passed out flyers attacking you. How did that sit with you, having this kind of blowback? 43 00:03:19,333 --> 00:03:24,333 FMR. STATE REP. COLE WIST: Well, it strikes me that we miss the mark when we talk about 44 00:03:26,333 --> 00:03:30,500 mass shootings or incidents like the one that motivated me to sponsor this legislation. 45 00:03:32,466 --> 00:03:36,633 And that is, these are matters of public safety. And in all other cases, 46 00:03:36,633 --> 00:03:41,100 and if you look at cases of domestic terrorism, in the mass shootings that we have seen in the 47 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:45,833 United States over just the last week, these are domestic terrorist incidents. 48 00:03:47,766 --> 00:03:51,200 And when we look at domestic terrorism, our government has not been hesitant 49 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,200 to make sure that we're doing everything that we can, in a proactive fashion to make sure that we 50 00:03:58,833 --> 00:04:02,333 protect public safety. But when you enter the word gun in this conversation, it freezes the parties. 51 00:04:05,033 --> 00:04:10,033 And, in my particular circumstance, I guess, if you could identify a sin that I 52 00:04:12,533 --> 00:04:15,533 committed as a legislator, and that is having the willingness to talk to folks on the other side 53 00:04:18,066 --> 00:04:21,233 across the political spectrum about solutions that we can put into place to protect constitutional 54 00:04:23,333 --> 00:04:28,066 rights, to make the burden of proof very, very high for someone seeking to deprive 55 00:04:28,066 --> 00:04:33,066 someone of the possession of a weapon, and yet, at the same time, recognizing that there is an 56 00:04:35,033 --> 00:04:38,333 important public safety concern here that's not being addressed by our current laws. 57 00:04:40,366 --> 00:04:42,400 And that's the reason I was motivated to introduce this piece of legislation. 58 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,400 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Given your experience, as someone who tried to reach across the aisle 59 00:04:49,333 --> 00:04:51,666 and introduce something that, again, to many people listening to, you would think, 60 00:04:51,666 --> 00:04:56,066 that seems like a reasonable, sensible approach, does that give you a sense 61 00:04:56,066 --> 00:04:58,933 of pessimism that anything is going to come out at the national level? 62 00:04:58,933 --> 00:05:03,500 Because leaders here in Washington, D.C., right now are trying to do exactly what you did, 63 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:07,600 to reach across the aisle to try to figure out, how can we stop these tragedies from occurring? 64 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,500 Given your experience, do you think that there's going to be any hope here? 65 00:05:11,500 --> 00:05:14,866 FMR. STATE REP. COLE WIST: William, I'm always hopeful. 66 00:05:14,866 --> 00:05:19,600 But I will give us an example an exchange I saw on Twitter last night between 67 00:05:21,666 --> 00:05:25,533 a radio show host and Senator Cornyn from Texas. And Senator Cornyn, in the past few days, 68 00:05:27,933 --> 00:05:31,933 has expressed some willingness and openness to talking to folks about expanded background checks, 69 00:05:33,533 --> 00:05:38,133 red flag laws, things that we can do to try to protect public safety. 70 00:05:38,133 --> 00:05:43,133 He was called out for those efforts last night, and he immediately retreated back 71 00:05:45,100 --> 00:05:48,066 to his corner and said: No, I'm not going to introduce anything that relates to guns. 72 00:05:48,066 --> 00:05:53,066 So, again, if we really talked about this as a public safety issue, as trying to address 73 00:05:55,033 --> 00:05:59,700 domestic terrorism, and not focusing on the gun issue, then I think we would make a whole 74 00:06:02,166 --> 00:06:06,333 lot more progress. But, unfortunately, when political tensions become high, as they are, 75 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:12,066 particularly with this issue, folks retreat to their comfortable corners. 76 00:06:12,066 --> 00:06:17,066 And whenever folks are in their corners, they're not talking to folks across the political spectrum 77 00:06:19,033 --> 00:06:20,566 and, frankly, they're not solving problems that we need to have solved. 78 00:06:20,566 --> 00:06:23,033 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In just the last few seconds that we have, 79 00:06:23,033 --> 00:06:26,066 do you have -- do you feel strongly that red flag laws 80 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:31,633 should be passed nationally? Do they really work to prevent these cases, these tragedies? 81 00:06:33,233 --> 00:06:36,466 FMR. STATE REP. COLE WIST: Well, we have red flag laws in 19 states. 82 00:06:36,466 --> 00:06:41,466 And one of the first states to pass one of these laws was Indiana. 83 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:45,200 And I don't think anyone would suggest that Indiana 84 00:06:47,166 --> 00:06:50,733 is a blue state, by any means. But I think they paved the way and showed that you can 85 00:06:52,733 --> 00:06:57,533 do this in a way that protects constitutional rights and still protects public safety. 86 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:04,533 In the couple of years that Colorado has passed this law, there's been a lot of analysis done in 87 00:07:04,533 --> 00:07:09,100 terms of whether or not the laws have been abused or whether or not this law has been abused. And 88 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:14,100 I think, if you look at the data, it shows that, to the extent that folks have sought these orders 89 00:07:17,266 --> 00:07:22,066 with frivolous facts or without a legal basis, those have been denied. 90 00:07:22,066 --> 00:07:24,700 So, the law is working. The law can function. 91 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:29,700 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Former Colorado state legislator Cole Wist, thank you so much for joining us. 92 00:07:31,133 --> 00:07:31,333 FMR. STATE REP. COLE WIST: Thank you. My pleasure.