WEBVTT 00:02.500 --> 00:04.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: With nearly 15 million members, the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest 00:04.666 --> 00:07.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Protestant denomination in the United States. 00:07.400 --> 00:10.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Now it is facing a reckoning of its own over sexual abuse. 00:10.966 --> 00:15.966 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% A Houston Chronicle investigation found hundreds of clergy or staff allegedly committed abuse 00:17.600 --> 00:20.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% or misconduct over two decades. 00:20.600 --> 00:25.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% This week, delegates of Southern Baptist churches approved changes for the first time to make 00:27.000 --> 00:30.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it easier to expel churches that cover up sexual abuse cases. 00:32.566 --> 00:36.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Rachael Denhollander was the first woman to publicly accuse Larry Nassar. 00:38.066 --> 00:41.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He's the former sports doctor at Michigan State University who was convicted of assaulting 00:41.033 --> 00:43.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% multiple girls and women. 00:43.100 --> 00:48.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Denhollander spoke at the convention on a panel with fellow sexual abuse survivors and 00:49.233 --> 00:51.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is on the denomination's sex abuse study group. 00:51.466 --> 00:56.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% She is also the author of "What Is a Girl Worth?: My Story of Breaking the Silence and 00:57.900 --> 01:01.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Exposing the Truth about Larry Nassar and USA Gymnastics." 01:01.600 --> 01:05.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Rachael Denhollander, thank you very much for being with us. 01:05.366 --> 01:10.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, you -- we know now that the church has made these changes. 01:10.233 --> 01:12.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You have been talking to a number of survivors. 01:12.933 --> 01:17.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I want to understand what your sense is of just how widespread this abuse was. 01:19.966 --> 01:22.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER, Advocate and Survivor; You know, unfortunately, the Houston Chronicle 01:22.633 --> 01:27.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% article didn't reveal anything that survivors and advocates haven't known for a long time. 01:27.566 --> 01:32.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And that is that we have a severe problem in Protestant circles with sexual abuse, not 01:35.100 --> 01:37.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% just by pastors, but by members of the church, and a severe problem with how churches frequently 01:38.533 --> 01:40.666 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% handle disclosures of abuse. 01:40.666 --> 01:44.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The top Protestant insurance companies receive more claims of sexual abuse by clergy than 01:46.066 --> 01:48.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% even the Catholic insurance companies receive. 01:48.400 --> 01:52.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the number one reason that Protestant organizations have been held liable in federal 01:52.566 --> 01:57.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% court for more than a decade is with -- is for the issue of sexual abuse. 01:59.033 --> 02:01.200 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% So this has not come as a surprise to survivors and advocates. 02:01.200 --> 02:05.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: You have said on your own that you believe that the church, in your experience, 02:07.500 --> 02:12.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% has not provided the kind of support, the relief to survivors of sexual abuse that it 02:14.500 --> 02:15.500 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% could. 02:15.500 --> 02:17.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What do you base that belief on? 02:17.633 --> 02:20.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: Well, again, we see the numbers in terms of the rate of abuse. 02:20.566 --> 02:25.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% We see the numbers in terms of how many churches are found liable for mishandling sexual assault 02:25.300 --> 02:28.000 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% claims. 02:28.000 --> 02:30.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And, in addition to that, the survivor community has repeatedly said that the church has, unfortunately, 02:30.933 --> 02:33.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% been one of the worst places to go. 02:33.033 --> 02:37.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% In a recent survey that asked survivors what they thought would be the most helpful vs. 02:39.900 --> 02:42.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what actually ended up being the most helpful, churches were listed as one of the things 02:42.533 --> 02:47.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% - - one of the institutions thought to be the most helpful, until survivors went for help. 02:47.100 --> 02:51.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And when survivors actually went for help, unfortunately, churches ranked dead last behind 02:51.566 --> 02:53.700 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the option of other. 02:53.700 --> 02:58.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so, unfortunately -- again, this is not a problem that is new to survivors and advocates. 02:58.066 --> 03:01.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: In your own experience, has that been the case? 03:01.033 --> 03:03.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: I have received both ends of the spectrum. 03:03.900 --> 03:07.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I was abused in a church setting when I was 7 years old. 03:07.400 --> 03:10.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I have -- I have had very negative experiences with the church. 03:10.166 --> 03:13.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I have also had very positive experiences with the church. 03:13.566 --> 03:18.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so my hope is that, as the SBC is moving forward with these reforms, and with a growing 03:18.400 --> 03:23.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% awareness of the problem, that more and more survivors will be able to experience the help 03:25.333 --> 03:27.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and the comfort and the community that I experienced for one of my churches. 03:27.600 --> 03:32.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And so these changes that were voted on by the Southern Baptist Convention, 03:34.633 --> 03:38.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the SBC, to require churches to -- in effect, to require more disclosure, to ask the churches 03:42.500 --> 03:47.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to step up, to do more, are these the kinds of changes that you think are going to make 03:48.100 --> 03:50.200 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% a difference? 03:50.200 --> 03:52.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: I think these are absolutely the first steps that need to be taken. 03:52.300 --> 03:57.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% One of -- one of the critical steps that the SBC took was to amend the constitution to 03:59.333 --> 04:01.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% create a credentialing committee who can examine claims of abuse and of churches mishandling 04:01.566 --> 04:03.666 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% abuse. 04:03.666 --> 04:07.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And this is critical, because that provides greater transparency, greater accountability, 04:07.000 --> 04:11.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and it puts the framework in place as we have never had before for being able to deal with 04:11.033 --> 04:13.000 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% these claims. 04:13.000 --> 04:16.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The curriculum that has been put together to help equip churches on the journey towards 04:16.466 --> 04:21.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% understanding abuse and being able to both prevent and respond to it is a critical first 04:21.166 --> 04:23.266 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% step. 04:23.266 --> 04:25.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% That being said, again, survivors and advocates are aware that this is a first step only. 04:25.900 --> 04:29.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The frame and the foundation is going to be only as good as what's built upon it. 04:29.833 --> 04:34.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so my hope is that, as the SBC moves forward, they will build upon this solid frame and 04:34.233 --> 04:36.166 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% foundation. 04:36.166 --> 04:38.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: It's my understanding that, at the same time, you have said that some 04:38.833 --> 04:43.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in the Southern Baptist Convention are undermining these changes, that they were clearing some 04:45.766 --> 04:50.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of the local churches that should have been punished, should have been reprimanded. 04:51.600 --> 04:53.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Why did you make that statement? 04:53.600 --> 04:56.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: Well, unfortunately, that's a matter of public record. 04:56.466 --> 05:01.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% The SBC president, J.D. Greear, had put forward a list of churches that he believed merited 05:03.033 --> 05:05.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% closer scrutiny for how they had handled sexual abuse claims. 05:05.966 --> 05:10.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But, within a matter of days, the SBC's Executive Committee, who was in charge of doing that 05:10.800 --> 05:15.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% investigation, cleared seven out of those 10 churches, without talking to survivors, 05:15.166 --> 05:20.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and, unfortunately, did so on a four-pronged basis that was almost useless in evaluating 05:21.100 --> 05:23.166 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% whether churches mishandle abuse. 05:23.166 --> 05:27.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And advocates and survivors and experts in the field of abuse could have explained to 05:27.333 --> 05:32.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the Executive committee that those four prongs that they were using to evaluate were not 05:32.133 --> 05:34.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the correct standards to be using. 05:34.166 --> 05:36.600 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They were not helpful guidelines to be using. 05:36.600 --> 05:40.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, unfortunately, expert advice wasn't sought. 05:40.833 --> 05:45.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so why that was done, I think is something that the Executive Committee needs to wrestle 05:45.033 --> 05:47.166 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% with. 05:47.166 --> 05:49.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I believe there are some in the Executive Committee that made those decisions out of 05:49.433 --> 05:50.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% ignorance. 05:50.433 --> 05:52.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They simply didn't know. 05:52.466 --> 05:57.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And there were some that made those decisions knowing that those criteria they established 05:58.500 --> 06:00.566 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% were not helpful and useful criteria. 06:00.566 --> 06:04.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, unfortunately, we have seen efforts to undermine what is being done in the SBC. 06:06.800 --> 06:09.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That being said, the steps that were taken today by the majority of SBC messengers, I 06:09.833 --> 06:11.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% think, are very positive. 06:11.066 --> 06:13.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And so I am hopeful. 06:13.166 --> 06:15.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And that's what I wanted to ask you, if you overall still have confidence 06:15.733 --> 06:17.800 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that it's moving in the right direction. 06:17.800 --> 06:22.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I do want to bring us back to Michigan State University, because today, as we reported 06:24.066 --> 06:27.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% earlier, the former dean, who was also the boss of Dr. Larry Nassar, was convicted. 06:30.366 --> 06:33.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% He himself has now been convicted of criminal conduct, neglect of duty, acquitted of criminal 06:35.833 --> 06:39.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sexual misconduct, though, but he could still face up to years -- up to five years in prison. 06:40.833 --> 06:43.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What's your reaction to all this? 06:43.433 --> 06:47.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: You know, Dean Strampel's negligence in supervising Larry, his deliberate 06:49.200 --> 06:52.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% return, putting Larry back in the office, when he was under police investigation, is 06:54.266 --> 06:55.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% something that we have known for quite a long time. 06:55.800 --> 06:59.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So I am grateful to see the conviction for that conduct. 06:59.800 --> 07:02.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I think it is necessary and I think it is just. 07:02.400 --> 07:07.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I am disappointed and discouraged to see that the survivors who reported assault by Strampel, 07:09.133 --> 07:12.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by Dean Strampel himself, were not believed by the jury, because we know, we understand 07:13.100 --> 07:14.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what Dr. Strampel's conduct was. 07:14.766 --> 07:19.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% His personnel file was full of warnings about his predatory behavior. 07:19.066 --> 07:22.166 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so I am disappointed to see a jury acquittal on that count. 07:22.166 --> 07:26.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: More broadly speaking, Rachael Denhollander, we know that a lot has happened 07:26.933 --> 07:31.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% since you initially came forward to be the first person to accuse Dr. Nassar. 07:33.900 --> 07:37.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We know that a number of institutions have made changes as a result of the disclosures 07:37.600 --> 07:42.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by you and so many other -- so many other women who suffered sexual abuse. 07:43.833 --> 07:45.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What do you think it all adds up to? 07:45.333 --> 07:48.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Do you think things have changed enough? 07:48.266 --> 07:52.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What do you think has been done right, and what more do you think needs to be done? 07:52.100 --> 07:57.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: I think there is an extent to which we overestimate the change 07:59.100 --> 08:02.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that has been made, honestly, because where the -- where the real test comes is how we 08:03.600 --> 08:06.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% respond when it's in our own community. 08:06.100 --> 08:10.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% How do we respond when it's our university, when it's our favorite sports team, our favorite 08:12.566 --> 08:15.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% coach, when it's in our religious institution, or it's our political candidate, when it would 08:15.433 --> 08:17.166 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% cost something to care? 08:17.166 --> 08:22.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, by and large, we are still seeing a circling of the wagons. 08:22.033 --> 08:26.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The statistics on the ability to convict sex offenders have not shifted. 08:26.233 --> 08:31.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We see an excellent case of this with the University of Southern California, USC, where 08:31.100 --> 08:36.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a gynecologist at USC, Dr. George Tyndall, has had over 500 women report sexual abuse. 08:38.100 --> 08:42.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There are decades of evidence of nurses reporting Dr. Tyndall's conduct, and yet there has not 08:43.733 --> 08:45.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% been a single criminal charge filed in his case. 08:45.866 --> 08:50.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, the idea that we have had a massive cultural shift that makes it easy for survivors to 08:50.200 --> 08:53.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% speak up and easy to get justice, that's simply not accurate. 08:53.333 --> 08:55.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We have a great deal of work left to do. 08:55.500 --> 08:58.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And it starts with how we respond when it's in our own community. 08:58.233 --> 09:02.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Very discouraging, but very important to hear. 09:02.733 --> 09:04.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Rachael Denhollander, thank you very much. 09:04.500 --> 09:07.066 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: Thank you. 09:07.066 --> 09:10.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, for the record, we invited J.D. Greear, who's the president of the Southern 09:10.733 --> 09:13.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Baptist Convention, to join us for an interview. 09:13.500 --> 09:15.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He declined our request at this time. 09:15.633 --> 09:20.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, tonight, U.S. Roman Catholic bishops voted to create a new national hot line for 09:21.533 --> 09:24.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% reporting sex abuse allegations. 09:24.000 --> 09:28.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% It would be run by an independent group, who would relay claims of abuse to regional supervisory 09:29.933 --> 09:31.400 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% bishops. 09:31.400 --> 09:33.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The service is supposed to begin operating within a year.