1 00:00:02,500 --> 00:00:04,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: With nearly 15 million members, the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest 2 00:00:04,666 --> 00:00:07,400 Protestant denomination in the United States. 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,966 Now it is facing a reckoning of its own over sexual abuse. 4 00:00:10,966 --> 00:00:15,966 A Houston Chronicle investigation found hundreds of clergy or staff allegedly committed abuse 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,600 or misconduct over two decades. 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,600 This week, delegates of Southern Baptist churches approved changes for the first time to make 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,700 it easier to expel churches that cover up sexual abuse cases. 8 00:00:32,566 --> 00:00:36,066 Rachael Denhollander was the first woman to publicly accuse Larry Nassar. 9 00:00:38,066 --> 00:00:41,033 He's the former sports doctor at Michigan State University who was convicted of assaulting 10 00:00:41,033 --> 00:00:43,100 multiple girls and women. 11 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:48,033 Denhollander spoke at the convention on a panel with fellow sexual abuse survivors and 12 00:00:49,233 --> 00:00:51,466 is on the denomination's sex abuse study group. 13 00:00:51,466 --> 00:00:56,433 She is also the author of "What Is a Girl Worth?: My Story of Breaking the Silence and 14 00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:01,600 Exposing the Truth about Larry Nassar and USA Gymnastics." 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,366 Rachael Denhollander, thank you very much for being with us. 16 00:01:05,366 --> 00:01:10,233 So, you -- we know now that the church has made these changes. 17 00:01:10,233 --> 00:01:12,933 You have been talking to a number of survivors. 18 00:01:12,933 --> 00:01:17,933 I want to understand what your sense is of just how widespread this abuse was. 19 00:01:19,966 --> 00:01:22,633 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER, Advocate and Survivor; You know, unfortunately, the Houston Chronicle 20 00:01:22,633 --> 00:01:27,566 article didn't reveal anything that survivors and advocates haven't known for a long time. 21 00:01:27,566 --> 00:01:32,566 And that is that we have a severe problem in Protestant circles with sexual abuse, not 22 00:01:35,100 --> 00:01:37,666 just by pastors, but by members of the church, and a severe problem with how churches frequently 23 00:01:38,533 --> 00:01:40,666 handle disclosures of abuse. 24 00:01:40,666 --> 00:01:44,733 The top Protestant insurance companies receive more claims of sexual abuse by clergy than 25 00:01:46,066 --> 00:01:48,400 even the Catholic insurance companies receive. 26 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,566 And the number one reason that Protestant organizations have been held liable in federal 27 00:01:52,566 --> 00:01:57,533 court for more than a decade is with -- is for the issue of sexual abuse. 28 00:01:59,033 --> 00:02:01,200 So this has not come as a surprise to survivors and advocates. 29 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: You have said on your own that you believe that the church, in your experience, 30 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:12,400 has not provided the kind of support, the relief to survivors of sexual abuse that it 31 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:15,500 could. 32 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:17,633 What do you base that belief on? 33 00:02:17,633 --> 00:02:20,566 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: Well, again, we see the numbers in terms of the rate of abuse. 34 00:02:20,566 --> 00:02:25,300 We see the numbers in terms of how many churches are found liable for mishandling sexual assault 35 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:28,000 claims. 36 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,933 And, in addition to that, the survivor community has repeatedly said that the church has, unfortunately, 37 00:02:30,933 --> 00:02:33,033 been one of the worst places to go. 38 00:02:33,033 --> 00:02:37,966 In a recent survey that asked survivors what they thought would be the most helpful vs. 39 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:42,533 what actually ended up being the most helpful, churches were listed as one of the things 40 00:02:42,533 --> 00:02:47,100 - - one of the institutions thought to be the most helpful, until survivors went for help. 41 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:51,566 And when survivors actually went for help, unfortunately, churches ranked dead last behind 42 00:02:51,566 --> 00:02:53,700 the option of other. 43 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:58,066 And so, unfortunately -- again, this is not a problem that is new to survivors and advocates. 44 00:02:58,066 --> 00:03:01,033 JUDY WOODRUFF: In your own experience, has that been the case? 45 00:03:01,033 --> 00:03:03,900 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: I have received both ends of the spectrum. 46 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:07,400 I was abused in a church setting when I was 7 years old. 47 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,166 And I have -- I have had very negative experiences with the church. 48 00:03:10,166 --> 00:03:13,566 I have also had very positive experiences with the church. 49 00:03:13,566 --> 00:03:18,400 And so my hope is that, as the SBC is moving forward with these reforms, and with a growing 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,400 awareness of the problem, that more and more survivors will be able to experience the help 51 00:03:25,333 --> 00:03:27,600 and the comfort and the community that I experienced for one of my churches. 52 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,600 JUDY WOODRUFF: And so these changes that were voted on by the Southern Baptist Convention, 53 00:03:34,633 --> 00:03:38,033 the SBC, to require churches to -- in effect, to require more disclosure, to ask the churches 54 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:47,500 to step up, to do more, are these the kinds of changes that you think are going to make 55 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:50,200 a difference? 56 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,300 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: I think these are absolutely the first steps that need to be taken. 57 00:03:52,300 --> 00:03:57,300 One of -- one of the critical steps that the SBC took was to amend the constitution to 58 00:03:59,333 --> 00:04:01,566 create a credentialing committee who can examine claims of abuse and of churches mishandling 59 00:04:01,566 --> 00:04:03,666 abuse. 60 00:04:03,666 --> 00:04:07,000 And this is critical, because that provides greater transparency, greater accountability, 61 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,033 and it puts the framework in place as we have never had before for being able to deal with 62 00:04:11,033 --> 00:04:13,000 these claims. 63 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,466 The curriculum that has been put together to help equip churches on the journey towards 64 00:04:16,466 --> 00:04:21,166 understanding abuse and being able to both prevent and respond to it is a critical first 65 00:04:21,166 --> 00:04:23,266 step. 66 00:04:23,266 --> 00:04:25,900 That being said, again, survivors and advocates are aware that this is a first step only. 67 00:04:25,900 --> 00:04:29,833 The frame and the foundation is going to be only as good as what's built upon it. 68 00:04:29,833 --> 00:04:34,233 And so my hope is that, as the SBC moves forward, they will build upon this solid frame and 69 00:04:34,233 --> 00:04:36,166 foundation. 70 00:04:36,166 --> 00:04:38,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: It's my understanding that, at the same time, you have said that some 71 00:04:38,833 --> 00:04:43,833 in the Southern Baptist Convention are undermining these changes, that they were clearing some 72 00:04:45,766 --> 00:04:50,133 of the local churches that should have been punished, should have been reprimanded. 73 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,600 Why did you make that statement? 74 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,466 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: Well, unfortunately, that's a matter of public record. 75 00:04:56,466 --> 00:05:01,466 The SBC president, J.D. Greear, had put forward a list of churches that he believed merited 76 00:05:03,033 --> 00:05:05,966 closer scrutiny for how they had handled sexual abuse claims. 77 00:05:05,966 --> 00:05:10,800 But, within a matter of days, the SBC's Executive Committee, who was in charge of doing that 78 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,166 investigation, cleared seven out of those 10 churches, without talking to survivors, 79 00:05:15,166 --> 00:05:20,166 and, unfortunately, did so on a four-pronged basis that was almost useless in evaluating 80 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:23,166 whether churches mishandle abuse. 81 00:05:23,166 --> 00:05:27,333 And advocates and survivors and experts in the field of abuse could have explained to 82 00:05:27,333 --> 00:05:32,133 the Executive committee that those four prongs that they were using to evaluate were not 83 00:05:32,133 --> 00:05:34,166 the correct standards to be using. 84 00:05:34,166 --> 00:05:36,600 They were not helpful guidelines to be using. 85 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,833 But, unfortunately, expert advice wasn't sought. 86 00:05:40,833 --> 00:05:45,033 And so why that was done, I think is something that the Executive Committee needs to wrestle 87 00:05:45,033 --> 00:05:47,166 with. 88 00:05:47,166 --> 00:05:49,433 I believe there are some in the Executive Committee that made those decisions out of 89 00:05:49,433 --> 00:05:50,433 ignorance. 90 00:05:50,433 --> 00:05:52,466 They simply didn't know. 91 00:05:52,466 --> 00:05:57,366 And there were some that made those decisions knowing that those criteria they established 92 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:00,566 were not helpful and useful criteria. 93 00:06:00,566 --> 00:06:04,833 So, unfortunately, we have seen efforts to undermine what is being done in the SBC. 94 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,833 That being said, the steps that were taken today by the majority of SBC messengers, I 95 00:06:09,833 --> 00:06:11,066 think, are very positive. 96 00:06:11,066 --> 00:06:13,166 And so I am hopeful. 97 00:06:13,166 --> 00:06:15,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: And that's what I wanted to ask you, if you overall still have confidence 98 00:06:15,733 --> 00:06:17,800 that it's moving in the right direction. 99 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,033 I do want to bring us back to Michigan State University, because today, as we reported 100 00:06:24,066 --> 00:06:27,866 earlier, the former dean, who was also the boss of Dr. Larry Nassar, was convicted. 101 00:06:30,366 --> 00:06:33,833 He himself has now been convicted of criminal conduct, neglect of duty, acquitted of criminal 102 00:06:35,833 --> 00:06:39,766 sexual misconduct, though, but he could still face up to years -- up to five years in prison. 103 00:06:40,833 --> 00:06:43,433 What's your reaction to all this? 104 00:06:43,433 --> 00:06:47,266 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: You know, Dean Strampel's negligence in supervising Larry, his deliberate 105 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,900 return, putting Larry back in the office, when he was under police investigation, is 106 00:06:54,266 --> 00:06:55,800 something that we have known for quite a long time. 107 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,800 So I am grateful to see the conviction for that conduct. 108 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,400 I think it is necessary and I think it is just. 109 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,133 I am disappointed and discouraged to see that the survivors who reported assault by Strampel, 110 00:07:09,133 --> 00:07:12,233 by Dean Strampel himself, were not believed by the jury, because we know, we understand 111 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:14,766 what Dr. Strampel's conduct was. 112 00:07:14,766 --> 00:07:19,066 His personnel file was full of warnings about his predatory behavior. 113 00:07:19,066 --> 00:07:22,166 And so I am disappointed to see a jury acquittal on that count. 114 00:07:22,166 --> 00:07:26,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: More broadly speaking, Rachael Denhollander, we know that a lot has happened 115 00:07:26,933 --> 00:07:31,933 since you initially came forward to be the first person to accuse Dr. Nassar. 116 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:37,600 We know that a number of institutions have made changes as a result of the disclosures 117 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,600 by you and so many other -- so many other women who suffered sexual abuse. 118 00:07:43,833 --> 00:07:45,333 What do you think it all adds up to? 119 00:07:45,333 --> 00:07:48,266 Do you think things have changed enough? 120 00:07:48,266 --> 00:07:52,100 What do you think has been done right, and what more do you think needs to be done? 121 00:07:52,100 --> 00:07:57,100 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: I think there is an extent to which we overestimate the change 122 00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:02,433 that has been made, honestly, because where the -- where the real test comes is how we 123 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,100 respond when it's in our own community. 124 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:10,500 How do we respond when it's our university, when it's our favorite sports team, our favorite 125 00:08:12,566 --> 00:08:15,433 coach, when it's in our religious institution, or it's our political candidate, when it would 126 00:08:15,433 --> 00:08:17,166 cost something to care? 127 00:08:17,166 --> 00:08:22,033 And, by and large, we are still seeing a circling of the wagons. 128 00:08:22,033 --> 00:08:26,233 The statistics on the ability to convict sex offenders have not shifted. 129 00:08:26,233 --> 00:08:31,100 We see an excellent case of this with the University of Southern California, USC, where 130 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:36,100 a gynecologist at USC, Dr. George Tyndall, has had over 500 women report sexual abuse. 131 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:42,333 There are decades of evidence of nurses reporting Dr. Tyndall's conduct, and yet there has not 132 00:08:43,733 --> 00:08:45,866 been a single criminal charge filed in his case. 133 00:08:45,866 --> 00:08:50,200 So, the idea that we have had a massive cultural shift that makes it easy for survivors to 134 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,333 speak up and easy to get justice, that's simply not accurate. 135 00:08:53,333 --> 00:08:55,500 We have a great deal of work left to do. 136 00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:58,233 And it starts with how we respond when it's in our own community. 137 00:08:58,233 --> 00:09:02,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: Very discouraging, but very important to hear. 138 00:09:02,733 --> 00:09:04,500 Rachael Denhollander, thank you very much. 139 00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:07,066 RACHAEL DENHOLLANDER: Thank you. 140 00:09:07,066 --> 00:09:10,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, for the record, we invited J.D. Greear, who's the president of the Southern 141 00:09:10,733 --> 00:09:13,500 Baptist Convention, to join us for an interview. 142 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:15,633 He declined our request at this time. 143 00:09:15,633 --> 00:09:20,633 And, tonight, U.S. Roman Catholic bishops voted to create a new national hot line for 144 00:09:21,533 --> 00:09:24,000 reporting sex abuse allegations. 145 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,833 It would be run by an independent group, who would relay claims of abuse to regional supervisory 146 00:09:29,933 --> 00:09:31,400 bishops. 147 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,600 The service is supposed to begin operating within a year.