>> Sreenivasan: EARLY POLICE
REPORTS, AND SUBSEQUENT
EVIDENCE, PRESENTED IN THE
POLICE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD,
PAINTED A CONTRADICTORY PICTURE
OF THE DEADLY EVENTS THAT PLAYED
OUT THAT EVENING, NEARLY A YEAR
AGO IN MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA.
MORE RECENTLY, NEWLY RELEASED
VIDEO FROM TWO YEARS AGO AFTER
THE DEATH OF RONALD GREENE IN
LOUISIANA, PAINTS ANOTHER
INCONSISTENT PICTURE.
GREENE DIED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT
CUSTODY AFTER A CAR CHASE.
AND WHILE INCIDENTS LIKE THESE
SPARK RENEWED CALLS FOR POLICE
REFORM, CONSENSUS ON WHAT THAT
MEANS IS NEBULOUS.
I SPOKE WITH PHILLIP ATIBA GOFF,
CO-FOUNDER AND C.E.O. OF THE
CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY AND
PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN
STUDIES AND PSYCHOLOGY AT YALE
UNIVERSITY ABOUT THESE ISSUES.
IN THIS LAST YEAR, HAVE WE SEEN
STRUCTURAL CHANGES TO POLICING
IN AMERICA?
>> SO, THERE'S TWO WAYS FOR ME
TO TAKE THAT QUESTION.
THE FIRST WAY IS HAS THE COUNTRY
CHANGED?
AND I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE
FRUSTRATED BY THE LACK OF CHANGE
THAT THEY SEE NATIONWIDE.
AND IT ABSOLUTELY FEELS LIKE
IT'S A NATIONWIDE QUESTION.
THAT'S IN PART BECAUSE PEOPLE
ARE LOOKING AT FEDERAL
LEGISLATION WHICH HASN'T PASSED.
THEY'RE LOOKING FOR PRESIDENTIAL
LEADERSHIP.
AND WE'VE JUST HAD A TRANSITION.
THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING
THAT DEALS WITH IT AT A FULL
NATIONAL LEVEL.
AND WHEN WE'RE LOOKING THERE, IT
DOESN'T LOOK LIKE WHAT WE WANT
TO SEE.
THAT SAID, THERE ARE LOTS OF
POCKETS, COMMUNITIES, ORGANIZERS
AROUND THE COUNTRY, THAT HAVE
DONE REALLY REMARKABLE THINGS.
WE'VE SEEN THE CITY OF BERKELEY
END LOW LEVEL TRAFFIC
ENFORCEMENT, CITY OF BALTIMORE
IS DECLINING TO PROSECUTE IT.
CITY OF ITHACA JUST APPROVED A
PLAN TO DISSOLVE ITS POLICE
DEPARTMENT AND PUT TOGETHER
SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, A
DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY
SOLUTIONS AND PUBLIC SAFETY
THAT'S MAJORITY UNARMED,
CIVILIAN-LED, AND WON'T SEND
ANYBODY ARMED TO A NONVIOLENT
CONFLICT.
SO, I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS
WE'RE SEEING PIECEMEAL, LIGHT
YEARS OF LEAPS.
SO, PIECEMEAL JUMPS FORWARD
TOWARDS WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO.
AND THAT'S GOING TO BE
ULTIMATELY UNSATISFYING WHEN
WE'RE LOOKING AT IN A NATIONAL
LENS, BUT IT'S GOING TO CREATE
THE MODELS THAT MAKE IT POSSIBLE
TO SEE FULL NATIONAL CHANGE.
>> Sreenivasan: YOU HAVE, WHAT,
18,000 DIFFERENT POLICE
DEPARTMENTS OR JURISDICTIONS,
AND WHAT MIGHT WORK IN A COLLEGE
TOWN LIKE BERKELEY OR ITHACA,
WILL IT WORK ON THE STREETS OF A
MAJOR AMERICAN CITY?
HOW DO WE, KIND OF, GET FROM ONE
PLACE TO THE OTHER WITHOUT THE
SORT OF CULTURAL IMMEDIATE
RESISTANCE AND RESPONSE THAT
SAYS, HOLD ON HERE, I EQUATE
MORE COPS ON THE STREETS WITH
INCREASED SAFETY, BECAUSE
PARTLY, THAT IS THE MESSAGE THAT
I'VE HEARD AND BELIEVED FOR
DECADES.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S A GOOD
QUESTION.
ITHACA AND BERKELEY ARE NOT
PHILADELPHIA AND ST. LOUIS, AND
WE SHOULDN'T TRY TO PRETEND LIKE
THEY ARE.
THERE'S 18,000 LAW ENFORCEMENT
AGENCIES ACROSS THE UNITED
STATES.
AND WHEN WE THINK OF POLICING,
WE THINK OF N.Y.P.D. AND CHICAGO
AND HOUSTON AND PHILADELPHIA.
BUT THE REALITY IS, 75% OF THOSE
LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ARE 25
OFFICERS OR FEWER.
AND THERE'S 1,000 THAT ARE JUST
ONE DUDE, BUT IT'S PRETTY MUCH
ALWAYS A DUDE.
SO, IN THAT CONTEXT, WE'RE GOING
TO SEE REALLY DIFFERENT CHANGES
IN A CITY WHERE THERE'S 63
OFFICERS, THAN IN A CITY WHERE
THERE'S 35,000.
THAT MIGHT NOT EVEN BE THE SAME
JOB.
SO, NO, I DON'T THINK WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN BERKELEY AND ITHICA
IS AN IMMEDIATE ROADMAP FOR
CHICAGO AND DALLAS.
I DO THINK, THOUGH, THAT THEY
PROVIDE MODELS FOR HOW
COMMUNITIES COME TOGETHER AND
SAY THIS IS HOW WE KEEP
OURSELVES SAFE.
AND SO, IT MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE
FOR NEW YORK TO DO WHAT ITHICA
JUST DID, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE IN
THE SAME STATE.
IT MAY BE POSSIBLE, THOUGH, FOR
ONE BOROUGH OR FOR ONE PRECINCT
TO GIVE THAT A SHOT AND THAT WE
SCALE UP COMMUNITY BY COMMUNITY
AND BLOCK BY BLOCK, BECAUSE
THAT'S HONESTLY HOW CRIME WORKS.
CRIME IS HYPER LOCAL.
IT'S NOT EVEN LIKE A
NEIGHBORHOOD, IT'S ONE STREET
CORNER WITHIN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD
THAT'S LIKE 85% OF THE VIOLENCE.
SO, IF CRIME WORKS THAT WAY, WHY
DO WE IMAGINE THAT SOLUTIONS TO
CRIME, SOLUTIONS TO POVERTY,
SOLUTIONS TO THE CONCENTRATED
SETS OF DISADVANTAGE THAT MAKE
CRIME A MORE ATTRACTIVE REALITY,
WHY DO WE IMAGINE THAT OUR
SOLUTIONS DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THE
SAME KIND OF SHAPE AND THE SAME
KIND OF SCALE?
I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT I'M GOING
TO TELL YOU, WE'RE GOING TO BE
DISAPPOINTED UNTIL WE RIGHT SIZE
THOSE SETS OF THINGS.
>> Sreenivasan: BUT WHAT
COMPLICATES MATTERS IS THAT
WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION
IN STILL, KIND OF, I'D SAY
HOPEFULLY THE SECOND HALF OF A
PANDEMIC, WHICH HAS HAD MASSIVE
ECONOMIC REPERCUSSIONS, HAS MADE
PEOPLE THINK SO DIFFERENTLY
ABOUT WHERE THEY ARE IN SOCIETY.
ARE THEY ESSENTIAL OR ARE THEY
EXPENDABLE?
HOW DO I FIT INTO THIS?
WHAT IS THE ROLE OF POLICE AND
CRIME, IS KIND OF ONE QUESTION
THAT'S PART OF A MUCH, MUCH
BIGGER SET OF CHALLENGES THAT
WE'RE ALL DEALING WITH.
>> YEAH, IT'S BOTH, IT MAKES IT
MORE COMPLICATED BECAUSE LOOK AT
ALL THE OTHER THINGS WE'VE GOT
TO DO JUST TO STAY SAFE, RIGHT.
ESPECIALLY DURING A PERIOD WHERE
THE ECONOMY IS CRASHING AND
WE'VE NOT PROVIDED APPROPRIATE
PROTECTIONS AGAINST EVICTIONS.
HOW DO YOU SOCIAL DISTANCE WHEN
YOU CAN'T STAY INDOORS?
AND, ALSO, IT PROVIDES A UNIQUE
SET OF OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE
IT'S VERY CLEAR THE WAY THAT WE
KEEP PEOPLE INDOORS ISN'T
WORKING.
THE WAY WE KEEP PEOPLE EMPLOYED
ISN'T WORKING.
LOOK AT MISSISSIPPI, WHERE THEY
PROVIDED UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE,
AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN PEOPLE
DECIDED THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GO
BACK TO MENIAL JOBS THAT WEREN'T
TREATING THEM VERY WELL.
AND THE GOVERNOR DECIDED, YOU
KNOW WHAT, WE GOT TO TAKE AWAY
YOUR MONEY, OTHERWISE YOU'LL
NEVER PRODUCE FOR US.
PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT ENTIRE
ECONOMIC SYSTEMS DIFFERENTLY
BECAUSE THE WAY THAT WE'VE SET
UP OUR SOCIETY DOES NOT TREAT
VULNERABLE PEOPLE LIKE THEY'RE
FULLY HUMAN.
AND THAT'S A GREAT WAY TO START
THINKING ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY,
BECAUSE IF ALL WE'RE DOING RIGHT
NOW IS THINKING ABOUT THE
POLICE, WE'VE ALREADY FAILED.
>> Sreenivasan: SO, HOW DO YOU
TRANSLATE FROM, SAY, FOR
EXAMPLE, IF YOU COULD WAVE A
MAGIC WAND AND HAVE EVERY
OFFICER AND ALL 18,000
JURISDICTIONS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT
AGENCIES TAKE IMPLICIT BIAS
TESTS AND UNDERSTAND THAT THERE
ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT THEY
BRING TO EVERY OCCASION, HOW DO
YOU TRANSLATE THAT INTO AN
ACTUAL CULTURAL SHIFT WHERE WE
PERCEIVE ONE ANOTHER DIFFERENTLY
DAY AFTER DAY, INCIDENT AFTER
INCIDENT, WHICH IS REALLY
DIFFICULT?
>> IT IS.
IT'S SO DIFFICULT THAT I DON'T
KNOW THAT WE REALLY WANT TO TRY.
HERE'S WHAT I MEAN BY THAT: THE
WAY YOU ASK THAT QUESTION, AND
I'M NOT ATTACKING YOU IN ANY
WAY, THE WAY YOU ASK THAT
QUESTION.
IT'S THE WAY I GET ASKED A LOT.
HOW DO WE CHANGE THE HEARTS AND
MINDS OF OFFICERS TO MAKE
POLICING BETTER?
AND I THINK THAT'S THE WRONG
DIAGNOSIS OF THE SOLUTION.
RATHER THAN FOCUSING ON THE
HEARTS AND MINDS OF OFFICERS OR
REALLY THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF
ANYBODY, LET'S FOCUS ON THE
BEHAVIORS, ON THE STRUCTURES
THAT WE ERECT THAT OVER-
DETERMINED EVERYBODY'S
BEHAVIORS.
AND, SCOUT'S HONOR, WE'RE GOING
TO GET A BETTER OUTCOME.
I'M A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGIST,
RIGHT?
THAT'S MY TRAINING.
THAT'S MY BACKGROUND.
I'M IN THE PSYCH. DEPARTMENT AT
YALE, RIGHT, SO I'M A
PSYCHOLOGIST'S PSYCHOLOGIST IN
THIS WAY, AND I'M TELLING YOU,
WE'VE KNOWN FOR THE BETTER PART
OF THE LAST CENTURY, THE
ATTITUDES IN GENERAL ARE REALLY
WEAK PREDICTORS OF BEHAVIOR.
BUT IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE
ATTITUDES, THE BEST WAY TO DO
THAT IS TO CHANGE BEHAVIOR.
SO, INSTEAD OF THINKING ABOUT
HOW DO WE AFFECT THE HEARTS AND
MINDS OF OFFICERS, LET'S
REGULATE THE BEHAVIORS.
THEY'LL CHANGE THEIR ATTITUDES
WHEN THEY ACT DIFFERENTLY.
IT SEEMS COUNTERINTUITIVE, IT
SEEMS CART BEFORE THE HORSE, BUT
I'M TELLING YOU, IN PSYCH. STUDY
AFTER STUDY AND META ANALYSIS
AFTER META ANALYSIS, ALL OF THE
SCIENCE IS CLEAR.
BEHAVIORS CHANGE ATTITUDES MORE
QUICKLY AND MORE PROFOUNDLY THAN
ATTITUDES CHANGE BEHAVIOR.
>> Sreenivasan: SO, WHAT ARE
CHANGES TO BEHAVIORS THAT POLICE
DEPARTMENTS COULD IMPLEMENT TO
HOPEFULLY CHANGE ATTITUDES OVER
TIME?
>> SO, MY COLLABORATOR, DEAR
FRIEND AND MENTOR, JENNIFER
EBERHARDT, HAD A WONDERFUL
INTERVENTION IN OAKLAND, WHERE
SHE JUST MADE SURE THAT
OFFICERS, EVERY OFFICER BEFORE
THEY ENGAGE IN A STOP, THEY HAVE
TO WRITE DOWN, "THIS IS AN
INTELLIGENCE-LED STOP.
I HAVE INTELLIGENCE FROM THIS
SOURCE THAT SAYS THIS IS A GOOD
STOP."
AND THE FOLLOWING YEAR, AFTER
THEY IMPLEMENTED THAT, THEY
STOPPED 43% FEWER BLACK PEOPLE
AND CRIME KEPT GOING DOWN.
NOW, THAT'S NOT QUITE CAUSALITY,
BUT THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD START.
IN LAS VEGAS, THEY WERE HAVING A
BIG PROBLEM WITH THEIR USE OF
FORCE AFTER FOOT PURSUITS.
AND SO, CENTER FOR POLICING
EQUITY, THE COMMUNITY AND LAS
VEGAS METRO POLICE DEPARTMENT
CAME TOGETHER AND SAID, HEY,
AFTER A FOOT PURSUIT, MY
ADRENALINE'S UP, MY HEART RATE'S
UP AND I KNOW YOU'RE A BAD GUY.
MAYBE THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
MAYBE I JUST SLOW DOWN, COUNT TO
TEN, DON'T TOUCH YOU UNTIL
BACKUP SHOWS UP, AND THE YEAR
AFTER THEY IMPLEMENTED THAT, 23%
DECLINE.
BUT THE BEST INTERVENTION IS NO
LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOWING UP IN
THE FIRST PLACE WHERE THEY DON'T
NEED TO BE.
THE LAST 25 YEARS OF DOING THIS
WORK, EVERYTHING I HEAR FROM
POLICE CHIEFS IS DON'T ASK US TO
BE SCHOOLTEACHERS, MENTAL HEALTH
EXPERTS, SUBSTANCE ABUSE
COUNSELORS, HOMELESS EXPERTS.
AND ACTIVISTS ARE ASKING FOR THE
SAME DARN THING.
DON'T SEND A BADGE AND A GUN
WHEN THE CRISIS IS HOMELESSNESS,
SEND A ROOF AND FOUR WALLS.
THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY
ABOUT THEM BEING BETTER.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT
THEM BEING THERE AT ALL.
DON'T INTRODUCE A GUN TO A
SITUATION WHERE SOMEONE NEEDS
SHELTER.
IT'LL MAKE A TREMENDOUS
DIFFERENCE IN HOW OFTEN WE HAVE
TO MOURN OUR DEAD.
>> Sreenivasan: ARE YOU
OPTIMISTIC?
>> I GENUINELY BELIEVE THAT
OPTIMISM IN THE FACE OF REALITY
IS A BIT OF A REVOLUTIONARY ACT,
YOU TRY AND BE A BIT OF A
REVOLUTIONARY EVERY DAY.
SO, I AM OPTIMISTIC, AND I AM
ALSO NOT NAIVE ABOUT WHAT IT'S
GOING TO TAKE TO GET FROM HERE
TO SOMEPLACE DIFFERENT IN A
LASTING KIND OF WAY.
>> Sreenivasan: ALRIGHT, PHILLIP
GOFF FROM YALE AND THE CO-
FOUNDER AND CO-C.E.O. OF THE
CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> Sreenivasan: THANKS, HARI.