>> Sreenivasan: EARLY POLICE

REPORTS, AND SUBSEQUENT

EVIDENCE, PRESENTED IN THE

POLICE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD,

PAINTED A CONTRADICTORY PICTURE

OF THE DEADLY EVENTS THAT PLAYED

OUT THAT EVENING, NEARLY A YEAR

AGO IN MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA.

MORE RECENTLY, NEWLY RELEASED

VIDEO FROM TWO YEARS AGO AFTER

THE DEATH OF RONALD GREENE IN

LOUISIANA, PAINTS ANOTHER

INCONSISTENT PICTURE.

GREENE DIED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT

CUSTODY AFTER A CAR CHASE.

AND WHILE INCIDENTS LIKE THESE

SPARK RENEWED CALLS FOR POLICE

REFORM, CONSENSUS ON WHAT THAT

MEANS IS NEBULOUS.

I SPOKE WITH PHILLIP ATIBA GOFF,

CO-FOUNDER AND C.E.O. OF THE

CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY AND

PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN

STUDIES AND PSYCHOLOGY AT YALE

UNIVERSITY ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

IN THIS LAST YEAR, HAVE WE SEEN

STRUCTURAL CHANGES TO POLICING

IN AMERICA?

>> SO, THERE'S TWO WAYS FOR ME

TO TAKE THAT QUESTION.

THE FIRST WAY IS HAS THE COUNTRY

CHANGED?

AND I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE

FRUSTRATED BY THE LACK OF CHANGE

THAT THEY SEE NATIONWIDE.

AND IT ABSOLUTELY FEELS LIKE

IT'S A NATIONWIDE QUESTION.

THAT'S IN PART BECAUSE PEOPLE

ARE LOOKING AT FEDERAL

LEGISLATION WHICH HASN'T PASSED.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR PRESIDENTIAL

LEADERSHIP.

AND WE'VE JUST HAD A TRANSITION.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING

THAT DEALS WITH IT AT A FULL

NATIONAL LEVEL.

AND WHEN WE'RE LOOKING THERE, IT

DOESN'T LOOK LIKE WHAT WE WANT

TO SEE.

THAT SAID, THERE ARE LOTS OF

POCKETS, COMMUNITIES, ORGANIZERS

AROUND THE COUNTRY, THAT HAVE

DONE REALLY REMARKABLE THINGS.

WE'VE SEEN THE CITY OF BERKELEY

END LOW LEVEL TRAFFIC

ENFORCEMENT, CITY OF BALTIMORE

IS DECLINING TO PROSECUTE IT.

CITY OF ITHACA JUST APPROVED A

PLAN TO DISSOLVE ITS POLICE

DEPARTMENT AND PUT TOGETHER

SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, A

DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY

SOLUTIONS AND PUBLIC SAFETY

THAT'S MAJORITY UNARMED,

CIVILIAN-LED, AND WON'T SEND

ANYBODY ARMED TO A NONVIOLENT

CONFLICT.

SO, I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS

WE'RE SEEING PIECEMEAL, LIGHT

YEARS OF LEAPS.

SO, PIECEMEAL JUMPS FORWARD

TOWARDS WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO.

AND THAT'S GOING TO BE

ULTIMATELY UNSATISFYING WHEN

WE'RE LOOKING AT IN A NATIONAL

LENS, BUT IT'S GOING TO CREATE

THE MODELS THAT MAKE IT POSSIBLE

TO SEE FULL NATIONAL CHANGE.

>> Sreenivasan: YOU HAVE, WHAT,

18,000 DIFFERENT POLICE

DEPARTMENTS OR JURISDICTIONS,

AND WHAT MIGHT WORK IN A COLLEGE

TOWN LIKE BERKELEY OR ITHACA,

WILL IT WORK ON THE STREETS OF A

MAJOR AMERICAN CITY?

HOW DO WE, KIND OF, GET FROM ONE

PLACE TO THE OTHER WITHOUT THE

SORT OF CULTURAL IMMEDIATE

RESISTANCE AND RESPONSE THAT

SAYS, HOLD ON HERE, I EQUATE

MORE COPS ON THE STREETS WITH

INCREASED SAFETY, BECAUSE

PARTLY, THAT IS THE MESSAGE THAT

I'VE HEARD AND BELIEVED FOR

DECADES.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S A GOOD

QUESTION.

ITHACA AND BERKELEY ARE NOT

PHILADELPHIA AND ST. LOUIS, AND

WE SHOULDN'T TRY TO PRETEND LIKE

THEY ARE.

THERE'S 18,000 LAW ENFORCEMENT

AGENCIES ACROSS THE UNITED

STATES.

AND WHEN WE THINK OF POLICING,

WE THINK OF N.Y.P.D. AND CHICAGO

AND HOUSTON AND PHILADELPHIA.

BUT THE REALITY IS, 75% OF THOSE

LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ARE 25

OFFICERS OR FEWER.

AND THERE'S 1,000 THAT ARE JUST

ONE DUDE, BUT IT'S PRETTY MUCH

ALWAYS A DUDE.

SO, IN THAT CONTEXT, WE'RE GOING

TO SEE REALLY DIFFERENT CHANGES

IN A CITY WHERE THERE'S 63

OFFICERS, THAN IN A CITY WHERE

THERE'S 35,000.

THAT MIGHT NOT EVEN BE THE SAME

JOB.

SO, NO, I DON'T THINK WHAT'S

HAPPENING IN BERKELEY AND ITHICA

IS AN IMMEDIATE ROADMAP FOR

CHICAGO AND DALLAS.

I DO THINK, THOUGH, THAT THEY

PROVIDE MODELS FOR HOW

COMMUNITIES COME TOGETHER AND

SAY THIS IS HOW WE KEEP

OURSELVES SAFE.

AND SO, IT MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE

FOR NEW YORK TO DO WHAT ITHICA

JUST DID, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE IN

THE SAME STATE.

IT MAY BE POSSIBLE, THOUGH, FOR

ONE BOROUGH OR FOR ONE PRECINCT

TO GIVE THAT A SHOT AND THAT WE

SCALE UP COMMUNITY BY COMMUNITY

AND BLOCK BY BLOCK, BECAUSE

THAT'S HONESTLY HOW CRIME WORKS.

CRIME IS HYPER LOCAL.

IT'S NOT EVEN LIKE A

NEIGHBORHOOD, IT'S ONE STREET

CORNER WITHIN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD

THAT'S LIKE 85% OF THE VIOLENCE.

SO, IF CRIME WORKS THAT WAY, WHY

DO WE IMAGINE THAT SOLUTIONS TO

CRIME, SOLUTIONS TO POVERTY,

SOLUTIONS TO THE CONCENTRATED

SETS OF DISADVANTAGE THAT MAKE

CRIME A MORE ATTRACTIVE REALITY,

WHY DO WE IMAGINE THAT OUR

SOLUTIONS DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THE

SAME KIND OF SHAPE AND THE SAME

KIND OF SCALE?

I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT I'M GOING

TO TELL YOU, WE'RE GOING TO BE

DISAPPOINTED UNTIL WE RIGHT SIZE

THOSE SETS OF THINGS.

>> Sreenivasan: BUT WHAT

COMPLICATES MATTERS IS THAT

WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION

IN STILL, KIND OF, I'D SAY

HOPEFULLY THE SECOND HALF OF A

PANDEMIC, WHICH HAS HAD MASSIVE

ECONOMIC REPERCUSSIONS, HAS MADE

PEOPLE THINK SO DIFFERENTLY

ABOUT WHERE THEY ARE IN SOCIETY.

ARE THEY ESSENTIAL OR ARE THEY

EXPENDABLE?

HOW DO I FIT INTO THIS?

WHAT IS THE ROLE OF POLICE AND

CRIME, IS KIND OF ONE QUESTION

THAT'S PART OF A MUCH, MUCH

BIGGER SET OF CHALLENGES THAT

WE'RE ALL DEALING WITH.

>> YEAH, IT'S BOTH, IT MAKES IT

MORE COMPLICATED BECAUSE LOOK AT

ALL THE OTHER THINGS WE'VE GOT

TO DO JUST TO STAY SAFE, RIGHT.

ESPECIALLY DURING A PERIOD WHERE

THE ECONOMY IS CRASHING AND

WE'VE NOT PROVIDED APPROPRIATE

PROTECTIONS AGAINST EVICTIONS.

HOW DO YOU SOCIAL DISTANCE WHEN

YOU CAN'T STAY INDOORS?

AND, ALSO, IT PROVIDES A UNIQUE

SET OF OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE

IT'S VERY CLEAR THE WAY THAT WE

KEEP PEOPLE INDOORS ISN'T

WORKING.

THE WAY WE KEEP PEOPLE EMPLOYED

ISN'T WORKING.

LOOK AT MISSISSIPPI, WHERE THEY

PROVIDED UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE,

AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN PEOPLE

DECIDED THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GO

BACK TO MENIAL JOBS THAT WEREN'T

TREATING THEM VERY WELL.

AND THE GOVERNOR DECIDED, YOU

KNOW WHAT, WE GOT TO TAKE AWAY

YOUR MONEY, OTHERWISE YOU'LL

NEVER PRODUCE FOR US.

PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT ENTIRE

ECONOMIC SYSTEMS DIFFERENTLY

BECAUSE THE WAY THAT WE'VE SET

UP OUR SOCIETY DOES NOT TREAT

VULNERABLE PEOPLE LIKE THEY'RE

FULLY HUMAN.

AND THAT'S A GREAT WAY TO START

THINKING ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY,

BECAUSE IF ALL WE'RE DOING RIGHT

NOW IS THINKING ABOUT THE

POLICE, WE'VE ALREADY FAILED.

>> Sreenivasan: SO, HOW DO YOU

TRANSLATE FROM, SAY, FOR

EXAMPLE, IF YOU COULD WAVE A

MAGIC WAND AND HAVE EVERY

OFFICER AND ALL 18,000

JURISDICTIONS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT

AGENCIES TAKE IMPLICIT BIAS

TESTS AND UNDERSTAND THAT THERE

ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT THEY

BRING TO EVERY OCCASION, HOW DO

YOU TRANSLATE THAT INTO AN

ACTUAL CULTURAL SHIFT WHERE WE

PERCEIVE ONE ANOTHER DIFFERENTLY

DAY AFTER DAY, INCIDENT AFTER

INCIDENT, WHICH IS REALLY

DIFFICULT?

>> IT IS.

IT'S SO DIFFICULT THAT I DON'T

KNOW THAT WE REALLY WANT TO TRY.

HERE'S WHAT I MEAN BY THAT: THE

WAY YOU ASK THAT QUESTION, AND

I'M NOT ATTACKING YOU IN ANY

WAY, THE WAY YOU ASK THAT

QUESTION.

IT'S THE WAY I GET ASKED A LOT.

HOW DO WE CHANGE THE HEARTS AND

MINDS OF OFFICERS TO MAKE

POLICING BETTER?

AND I THINK THAT'S THE WRONG

DIAGNOSIS OF THE SOLUTION.

RATHER THAN FOCUSING ON THE

HEARTS AND MINDS OF OFFICERS OR

REALLY THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF

ANYBODY, LET'S FOCUS ON THE

BEHAVIORS, ON THE STRUCTURES

THAT WE ERECT THAT OVER-

DETERMINED EVERYBODY'S

BEHAVIORS.

AND, SCOUT'S HONOR, WE'RE GOING

TO GET A BETTER OUTCOME.

I'M A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGIST,

RIGHT?

THAT'S MY TRAINING.

THAT'S MY BACKGROUND.

I'M IN THE PSYCH. DEPARTMENT AT

YALE, RIGHT, SO I'M A

PSYCHOLOGIST'S PSYCHOLOGIST IN

THIS WAY, AND I'M TELLING YOU,

WE'VE KNOWN FOR THE BETTER PART

OF THE LAST CENTURY, THE

ATTITUDES IN GENERAL ARE REALLY

WEAK PREDICTORS OF BEHAVIOR.

BUT IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE

ATTITUDES, THE BEST WAY TO DO

THAT IS TO CHANGE BEHAVIOR.

SO, INSTEAD OF THINKING ABOUT

HOW DO WE AFFECT THE HEARTS AND

MINDS OF OFFICERS, LET'S

REGULATE THE BEHAVIORS.

THEY'LL CHANGE THEIR ATTITUDES

WHEN THEY ACT DIFFERENTLY.

IT SEEMS COUNTERINTUITIVE, IT

SEEMS CART BEFORE THE HORSE, BUT

I'M TELLING YOU, IN PSYCH. STUDY

AFTER STUDY AND META ANALYSIS

AFTER META ANALYSIS, ALL OF THE

SCIENCE IS CLEAR.

BEHAVIORS CHANGE ATTITUDES MORE

QUICKLY AND MORE PROFOUNDLY THAN

ATTITUDES CHANGE BEHAVIOR.

>> Sreenivasan: SO, WHAT ARE

CHANGES TO BEHAVIORS THAT POLICE

DEPARTMENTS COULD IMPLEMENT TO

HOPEFULLY CHANGE ATTITUDES OVER

TIME?

>> SO, MY COLLABORATOR, DEAR

FRIEND AND MENTOR, JENNIFER

EBERHARDT, HAD A WONDERFUL

INTERVENTION IN OAKLAND, WHERE

SHE JUST MADE SURE THAT

OFFICERS, EVERY OFFICER BEFORE

THEY ENGAGE IN A STOP, THEY HAVE

TO WRITE DOWN, "THIS IS AN

INTELLIGENCE-LED STOP.

I HAVE INTELLIGENCE FROM THIS

SOURCE THAT SAYS THIS IS A GOOD

STOP."

AND THE FOLLOWING YEAR, AFTER

THEY IMPLEMENTED THAT, THEY

STOPPED 43% FEWER BLACK PEOPLE

AND CRIME KEPT GOING DOWN.

NOW, THAT'S NOT QUITE CAUSALITY,

BUT THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD START.

IN LAS VEGAS, THEY WERE HAVING A

BIG PROBLEM WITH THEIR USE OF

FORCE AFTER FOOT PURSUITS.

AND SO, CENTER FOR POLICING

EQUITY, THE COMMUNITY AND LAS

VEGAS METRO POLICE DEPARTMENT

CAME TOGETHER AND SAID, HEY,

AFTER A FOOT PURSUIT, MY

ADRENALINE'S UP, MY HEART RATE'S

UP AND I KNOW YOU'RE A BAD GUY.

MAYBE THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

MAYBE I JUST SLOW DOWN, COUNT TO

TEN, DON'T TOUCH YOU UNTIL

BACKUP SHOWS UP, AND THE YEAR

AFTER THEY IMPLEMENTED THAT, 23%

DECLINE.

BUT THE BEST INTERVENTION IS NO

LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOWING UP IN

THE FIRST PLACE WHERE THEY DON'T

NEED TO BE.

THE LAST 25 YEARS OF DOING THIS

WORK, EVERYTHING I HEAR FROM

POLICE CHIEFS IS DON'T ASK US TO

BE SCHOOLTEACHERS, MENTAL HEALTH

EXPERTS, SUBSTANCE ABUSE

COUNSELORS, HOMELESS EXPERTS.

AND ACTIVISTS ARE ASKING FOR THE

SAME DARN THING.

DON'T SEND A BADGE AND A GUN

WHEN THE CRISIS IS HOMELESSNESS,

SEND A ROOF AND FOUR WALLS.

THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY

ABOUT THEM BEING BETTER.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT

THEM BEING THERE AT ALL.

DON'T INTRODUCE A GUN TO A

SITUATION WHERE SOMEONE NEEDS

SHELTER.

IT'LL MAKE A TREMENDOUS

DIFFERENCE IN HOW OFTEN WE HAVE

TO MOURN OUR DEAD.

>> Sreenivasan: ARE YOU

OPTIMISTIC?

>> I GENUINELY BELIEVE THAT

OPTIMISM IN THE FACE OF REALITY

IS A BIT OF A REVOLUTIONARY ACT,

YOU TRY AND BE A BIT OF A

REVOLUTIONARY EVERY DAY.

SO, I AM OPTIMISTIC, AND I AM

ALSO NOT NAIVE ABOUT WHAT IT'S

GOING TO TAKE TO GET FROM HERE

TO SOMEPLACE DIFFERENT IN A

LASTING KIND OF WAY.

>> Sreenivasan: ALRIGHT, PHILLIP

GOFF FROM YALE AND THE CO-

FOUNDER AND CO-C.E.O. OF THE

CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> Sreenivasan: THANKS, HARI.