WEBVTT 00:02.033 --> 00:04.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In just a few days, a music video online called "This Is America" has 00:04.066 --> 00:07.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% been viewed almost 55 million times. 00:07.533 --> 00:12.533 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% As Jeffrey Brown explains, the video has also set off an intense debate about violence and 00:13.000 --> 00:15.033 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% race. 00:15.033 --> 00:18.500 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: The video is beautifully shot and choreographed, infectious in its beat, 00:18.500 --> 00:20.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% jarring in its violence and imagery. 00:20.600 --> 00:25.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And it's clearly struck a nerve, touching on painful racial history and a contemporary 00:25.400 --> 00:28.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% culture of mass entertainment and mass murders. 00:28.866 --> 00:33.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% It's the work of Donald Glover, known for writing and acting in the acclaimed TV series 00:33.633 --> 00:38.600 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% "Atlanta," for his comedy, and for the music he performs, as here, under the pseudonym 00:39.366 --> 00:41.500 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Childish Gambino. 00:41.500 --> 00:45.266 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Here is an excerpt from "This Is America," with a warning for some of the violent images 00:45.900 --> 00:50.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% it contains. 00:54.533 --> 00:59.500 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% (MUSIC) 01:03.233 --> 01:08.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: The "This Is America" video has elicited all kinds of reaction, pro and 01:30.466 --> 01:32.466 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% con. 01:32.466 --> 01:36.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% We're joined now by Tre Johnson, a contributor to "Rolling Stone" magazine who just wrote 01:36.166 --> 01:37.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% about the piece. 01:37.166 --> 01:38.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Tre, thanks for joining us. 01:38.866 --> 01:41.600 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% Why -- first of all, in general terms, why is it striking such a chord? 01:41.600 --> 01:42.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% TRE JOHNSON, "Rolling Stone": Yes. 01:42.966 --> 01:44.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Thanks for having me on. 01:44.433 --> 01:47.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I think it's striking a chord for a couple of reasons. 01:47.000 --> 01:51.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% One, I think it represents a pretty strong departure for some of the work Donald Glover 01:51.233 --> 01:54.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% had been doing that people previously had known. 01:54.800 --> 01:58.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% A lot of his work, as you had noted, has been much more in the comedy realm. 01:58.000 --> 02:02.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And this is a starker, darker reflection of his take on what is happening in American 02:02.500 --> 02:05.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% society that isn't played up for laughs. 02:05.000 --> 02:09.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I think some of it, too, has to do with the fact that you're watching what feels like 02:09.666 --> 02:14.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% an almost endless loop of chaos and violence, all of it expended upon the black body in 02:16.633 --> 02:18.600 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% particular, which, given the climate that we're in nowadays, is trending a lot for people. 02:18.600 --> 02:22.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: The shooting that we saw evokes the Charleston shooting at a black church 02:22.033 --> 02:23.533 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% by Dylann Roof. 02:23.533 --> 02:28.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What other specific themes or history are used in this video? 02:28.133 --> 02:31.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% TRE JOHNSON: Yes, I would say there's a couple of things. 02:31.300 --> 02:34.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There is obviously the shooting that you just referenced. 02:34.766 --> 02:39.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% There is also the shooting that takes place in the beginning of the video, where you see 02:39.566 --> 02:44.566 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% a black guitarist who is peacefully trying to do some music, and he is kind of mercilessly 02:46.333 --> 02:49.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% executed right at the beginning of the film. 02:49.300 --> 02:54.266 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% In the background, too, I think what's interesting to watch is there is an ever-evolving, increasing 02:55.733 --> 02:57.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% chaos and violence that's happening in the background. 02:57.800 --> 03:01.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Some of it is very reminiscent of some of the protests and riots that we have seen in 03:01.433 --> 03:06.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% light of a lot of the black victims that have fallen due to police brutality and other types 03:07.033 --> 03:09.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% of gun violence. 03:09.066 --> 03:13.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I think, too, what you're also witnessing is just the ways that some of this imagery 03:13.200 --> 03:15.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and some of these scenes and tragedies have been captured. 03:15.366 --> 03:19.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% So, one of the starkest images I think that pop up the video for me is when you see the 03:19.866 --> 03:24.333 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% camera pan up to the rafters, and there is a group of small black children who are using 03:24.333 --> 03:27.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% cell phones to capture a lot of what's happening around them. 03:27.166 --> 03:32.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: There really is a mix here of entertainment, you know, the music and 03:34.066 --> 03:37.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the dancing, even fun at times, with this - - with guns and violence and all you were 03:37.200 --> 03:38.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% just referencing. 03:38.600 --> 03:41.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But it is a kind of in-your-face juxtaposition. 03:41.033 --> 03:45.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% TRE JOHNSON: Yes, I think that's purposeful, and I think for a couple reasons. 03:45.400 --> 03:47.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I write about this in the article. 03:47.433 --> 03:51.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% One is the idea that, you know, I think, a lot of times, black artists understand the 03:51.366 --> 03:55.400 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% need to transform their community's pain and trauma into art. 03:55.400 --> 03:59.700 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% And, sometimes, that art looks very joyful, because we're looking for ways to uplift ourselves 03:59.700 --> 04:04.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% and to heal from a lot of the things that are visited upon us in the community every 04:04.433 --> 04:06.500 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% day. 04:06.500 --> 04:09.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I also think you look at, like, kind of the - - the kind of, like, the tension between 04:09.700 --> 04:14.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% exploitation of black culture and black pain for media and popular culture consumption. 04:16.133 --> 04:19.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So, there is an aloofness around just what people are sharing. 04:19.933 --> 04:24.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Sometimes, it's consumed without the context or the care about the actual pain and the 04:24.000 --> 04:28.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% real-life circumstances that are involved in the lives of black artists and the communities 04:28.400 --> 04:33.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% that they often represent, when they're kind of taken in by people who are several altitudes 04:33.300 --> 04:35.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% removed from those kind of day-to-day circumstances, too. 04:35.600 --> 04:38.800 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: You know, I mentioned that there's been a lot of negative reaction. 04:38.800 --> 04:42.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There's many, many layers and strains of that. 04:42.133 --> 04:47.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Part of it, of course, is questioning the violence and how much that is necessary, how 04:47.933 --> 04:50.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% much of it is shown. 04:50.000 --> 04:54.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Some people are also talk -- questioning Glover's motives and his own background and what he's 04:55.300 --> 04:56.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% bringing to this. 04:56.800 --> 04:59.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Explain what you're hearing in terms of the critique out there. 04:59.266 --> 05:00.566 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% TRE JOHNSON: Yes. 05:00.566 --> 05:03.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You know, I hear some of those same critiques. 05:03.033 --> 05:08.033 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% I think, for some folks, the idea of seeing even fictionalized black violence on the screen 05:10.000 --> 05:14.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% is unfortunate, because I think a lot of people feel like we have already become very viral 05:14.100 --> 05:18.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% in seeing the image of black bodies, either through police footage, or, again, captured 05:18.900 --> 05:23.266 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% on cell phones, looped through our social media feeds and across text message chains 05:23.266 --> 05:25.300 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% all the time. 05:25.300 --> 05:29.466 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I think, too, again, you know, I think what is jarring about the video itself is that 05:29.466 --> 05:34.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% you watch Glover's own kind of facial contortions as he moves from scene to scene to scene. 05:34.200 --> 05:39.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I think there's a desire to see him kind of linger in the despair and acknowledge the 05:41.266 --> 05:44.633 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% deep pain that some of these images are causing for people, or how they are resonant of things 05:44.633 --> 05:49.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% that are happening that people identify with all the time, in terms of losing family members 05:51.000 --> 05:55.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or friends or other relatives to gun violence itself. 05:57.100 --> 06:01.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And then I think, lastly, but what I really challenge people on is, you know, art is going 06:02.200 --> 06:04.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to make people uncomfortable at times. 06:04.266 --> 06:08.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And I think what I really like to do is focus on crediting how much it is that black artists 06:10.033 --> 06:13.266 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% are kind of choosing to take on the hard labor of holding the tension between entertainment 06:15.333 --> 06:18.666 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% and a responsibility to uplifting just more nuanced conversations about American life 06:20.600 --> 06:24.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% that I think is often given a pass to some of their mainstream white peer artists. 06:24.066 --> 06:28.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And so, for me, I'm more interested in the conversation of, what is this art telling 06:28.900 --> 06:33.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% us vs. what are the motivations behind it, because I think the conversation that we're 06:33.400 --> 06:37.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% trying to have around what this art is producing in front of us is much more worthwhile than 06:37.866 --> 06:41.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% trying to scrutinize and parse what everyone's individual motivations are. 06:41.633 --> 06:44.600 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: You know, just briefly, in our last minute, I mean, I can see a lot of 06:44.600 --> 06:47.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% people wondering, just what's going on here? 06:47.833 --> 06:52.833 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% How much of it is Glover making a serious statement, as opposed to making a provocative 06:54.233 --> 06:55.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% piece of entertainment himself? 06:55.966 --> 06:57.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% TRE JOHNSON: Yes. 06:57.433 --> 07:01.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mean, the tough answer might be that it could be both. 07:01.333 --> 07:06.200 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% He might want to actually -- you know, I think this is a subversion of pop culture typically 07:06.200 --> 07:09.766 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% being the thing that is an escapism, that makes us feel good and makes us feel happy. 07:09.766 --> 07:14.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I have been saying, watching this season's "Atlanta," one of the greatest things that 07:14.533 --> 07:18.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% he's been doing about this is changing the expectations on what we're doing in terms 07:18.700 --> 07:21.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of engaging with traditional pop culture mediums. 07:21.933 --> 07:26.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And so both "Atlanta" and "This Is America" are choosing to take on a darker, harsher 07:26.733 --> 07:31.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% tone, which is, like, confounding the expectations a lot of people are expecting. 07:31.500 --> 07:36.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And I think, lastly, this fits -- "This Is America," "Atlanta" fits into a wider conversation 07:38.533 --> 07:41.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% around pop culture or tapestry that black artists are doing. 07:41.533 --> 07:46.533 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% If you look at "Get Out," you look at "Lemonade," you look at even some of the things that Solange 07:48.500 --> 07:51.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Knowles has done with "A Seat at the Table," and Janelle Monae's most recent album, they're 07:51.500 --> 07:56.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% all looking to choose to pick up the baton of having America really look at a lot of 07:58.466 --> 08:02.366 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the contradictions around what we say we value about black lives, and then how we actually 08:04.366 --> 08:07.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% address black entertainment when it chooses to stand up and represent the kind of like 08:07.066 --> 08:11.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% chaotic, nuanced experiences around black lives inside of the wider society. 08:11.300 --> 08:14.633 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: All right, Tre Johnson of "Rolling Stone," thank you very much. 08:14.633 --> 08:15.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% TRE JOHNSON: Thank you.