1 00:00:02,033 --> 00:00:04,066 WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In just a few days, a music video online called "This Is America" has 2 00:00:04,066 --> 00:00:07,533 been viewed almost 55 million times. 3 00:00:07,533 --> 00:00:12,533 As Jeffrey Brown explains, the video has also set off an intense debate about violence and 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,033 race. 5 00:00:15,033 --> 00:00:18,500 JEFFREY BROWN: The video is beautifully shot and choreographed, infectious in its beat, 6 00:00:18,500 --> 00:00:20,600 jarring in its violence and imagery. 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,400 And it's clearly struck a nerve, touching on painful racial history and a contemporary 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,866 culture of mass entertainment and mass murders. 9 00:00:28,866 --> 00:00:33,633 It's the work of Donald Glover, known for writing and acting in the acclaimed TV series 10 00:00:33,633 --> 00:00:38,600 "Atlanta," for his comedy, and for the music he performs, as here, under the pseudonym 11 00:00:39,366 --> 00:00:41,500 Childish Gambino. 12 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:45,266 Here is an excerpt from "This Is America," with a warning for some of the violent images 13 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:50,433 it contains. 14 00:00:54,533 --> 00:00:59,500 (MUSIC) 15 00:01:03,233 --> 00:01:08,233 JEFFREY BROWN: The "This Is America" video has elicited all kinds of reaction, pro and 16 00:01:30,466 --> 00:01:32,466 con. 17 00:01:32,466 --> 00:01:36,166 We're joined now by Tre Johnson, a contributor to "Rolling Stone" magazine who just wrote 18 00:01:36,166 --> 00:01:37,166 about the piece. 19 00:01:37,166 --> 00:01:38,866 Tre, thanks for joining us. 20 00:01:38,866 --> 00:01:41,600 Why -- first of all, in general terms, why is it striking such a chord? 21 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:42,966 TRE JOHNSON, "Rolling Stone": Yes. 22 00:01:42,966 --> 00:01:44,433 Thanks for having me on. 23 00:01:44,433 --> 00:01:47,000 I think it's striking a chord for a couple of reasons. 24 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,233 One, I think it represents a pretty strong departure for some of the work Donald Glover 25 00:01:51,233 --> 00:01:54,800 had been doing that people previously had known. 26 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,000 A lot of his work, as you had noted, has been much more in the comedy realm. 27 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,500 And this is a starker, darker reflection of his take on what is happening in American 28 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:05,000 society that isn't played up for laughs. 29 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,666 I think some of it, too, has to do with the fact that you're watching what feels like 30 00:02:09,666 --> 00:02:14,666 an almost endless loop of chaos and violence, all of it expended upon the black body in 31 00:02:16,633 --> 00:02:18,600 particular, which, given the climate that we're in nowadays, is trending a lot for people. 32 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,033 JEFFREY BROWN: The shooting that we saw evokes the Charleston shooting at a black church 33 00:02:22,033 --> 00:02:23,533 by Dylann Roof. 34 00:02:23,533 --> 00:02:28,133 What other specific themes or history are used in this video? 35 00:02:28,133 --> 00:02:31,300 TRE JOHNSON: Yes, I would say there's a couple of things. 36 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:34,766 There is obviously the shooting that you just referenced. 37 00:02:34,766 --> 00:02:39,566 There is also the shooting that takes place in the beginning of the video, where you see 38 00:02:39,566 --> 00:02:44,566 a black guitarist who is peacefully trying to do some music, and he is kind of mercilessly 39 00:02:46,333 --> 00:02:49,300 executed right at the beginning of the film. 40 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:54,266 In the background, too, I think what's interesting to watch is there is an ever-evolving, increasing 41 00:02:55,733 --> 00:02:57,800 chaos and violence that's happening in the background. 42 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,433 Some of it is very reminiscent of some of the protests and riots that we have seen in 43 00:03:01,433 --> 00:03:06,433 light of a lot of the black victims that have fallen due to police brutality and other types 44 00:03:07,033 --> 00:03:09,066 of gun violence. 45 00:03:09,066 --> 00:03:13,200 I think, too, what you're also witnessing is just the ways that some of this imagery 46 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,366 and some of these scenes and tragedies have been captured. 47 00:03:15,366 --> 00:03:19,866 So, one of the starkest images I think that pop up the video for me is when you see the 48 00:03:19,866 --> 00:03:24,333 camera pan up to the rafters, and there is a group of small black children who are using 49 00:03:24,333 --> 00:03:27,166 cell phones to capture a lot of what's happening around them. 50 00:03:27,166 --> 00:03:32,166 JEFFREY BROWN: There really is a mix here of entertainment, you know, the music and 51 00:03:34,066 --> 00:03:37,200 the dancing, even fun at times, with this - - with guns and violence and all you were 52 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:38,600 just referencing. 53 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,033 But it is a kind of in-your-face juxtaposition. 54 00:03:41,033 --> 00:03:45,400 TRE JOHNSON: Yes, I think that's purposeful, and I think for a couple reasons. 55 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,433 And I write about this in the article. 56 00:03:47,433 --> 00:03:51,366 One is the idea that, you know, I think, a lot of times, black artists understand the 57 00:03:51,366 --> 00:03:55,400 need to transform their community's pain and trauma into art. 58 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,700 And, sometimes, that art looks very joyful, because we're looking for ways to uplift ourselves 59 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:04,433 and to heal from a lot of the things that are visited upon us in the community every 60 00:04:04,433 --> 00:04:06,500 day. 61 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:09,700 I also think you look at, like, kind of the - - the kind of, like, the tension between 62 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:14,700 exploitation of black culture and black pain for media and popular culture consumption. 63 00:04:16,133 --> 00:04:19,933 So, there is an aloofness around just what people are sharing. 64 00:04:19,933 --> 00:04:24,000 Sometimes, it's consumed without the context or the care about the actual pain and the 65 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,400 real-life circumstances that are involved in the lives of black artists and the communities 66 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,300 that they often represent, when they're kind of taken in by people who are several altitudes 67 00:04:33,300 --> 00:04:35,600 removed from those kind of day-to-day circumstances, too. 68 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,800 JEFFREY BROWN: You know, I mentioned that there's been a lot of negative reaction. 69 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,133 There's many, many layers and strains of that. 70 00:04:42,133 --> 00:04:47,133 Part of it, of course, is questioning the violence and how much that is necessary, how 71 00:04:47,933 --> 00:04:50,000 much of it is shown. 72 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,566 Some people are also talk -- questioning Glover's motives and his own background and what he's 73 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:56,800 bringing to this. 74 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,266 Explain what you're hearing in terms of the critique out there. 75 00:04:59,266 --> 00:05:00,566 TRE JOHNSON: Yes. 76 00:05:00,566 --> 00:05:03,033 You know, I hear some of those same critiques. 77 00:05:03,033 --> 00:05:08,033 I think, for some folks, the idea of seeing even fictionalized black violence on the screen 78 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,100 is unfortunate, because I think a lot of people feel like we have already become very viral 79 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:18,900 in seeing the image of black bodies, either through police footage, or, again, captured 80 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:23,266 on cell phones, looped through our social media feeds and across text message chains 81 00:05:23,266 --> 00:05:25,300 all the time. 82 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:29,466 I think, too, again, you know, I think what is jarring about the video itself is that 83 00:05:29,466 --> 00:05:34,200 you watch Glover's own kind of facial contortions as he moves from scene to scene to scene. 84 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,200 I think there's a desire to see him kind of linger in the despair and acknowledge the 85 00:05:41,266 --> 00:05:44,633 deep pain that some of these images are causing for people, or how they are resonant of things 86 00:05:44,633 --> 00:05:49,633 that are happening that people identify with all the time, in terms of losing family members 87 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,033 or friends or other relatives to gun violence itself. 88 00:05:57,100 --> 00:06:01,166 And then I think, lastly, but what I really challenge people on is, you know, art is going 89 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,266 to make people uncomfortable at times. 90 00:06:04,266 --> 00:06:08,033 And I think what I really like to do is focus on crediting how much it is that black artists 91 00:06:10,033 --> 00:06:13,266 are kind of choosing to take on the hard labor of holding the tension between entertainment 92 00:06:15,333 --> 00:06:18,666 and a responsibility to uplifting just more nuanced conversations about American life 93 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,066 that I think is often given a pass to some of their mainstream white peer artists. 94 00:06:24,066 --> 00:06:28,900 And so, for me, I'm more interested in the conversation of, what is this art telling 95 00:06:28,900 --> 00:06:33,400 us vs. what are the motivations behind it, because I think the conversation that we're 96 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,866 trying to have around what this art is producing in front of us is much more worthwhile than 97 00:06:37,866 --> 00:06:41,633 trying to scrutinize and parse what everyone's individual motivations are. 98 00:06:41,633 --> 00:06:44,600 JEFFREY BROWN: You know, just briefly, in our last minute, I mean, I can see a lot of 99 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,833 people wondering, just what's going on here? 100 00:06:47,833 --> 00:06:52,833 How much of it is Glover making a serious statement, as opposed to making a provocative 101 00:06:54,233 --> 00:06:55,966 piece of entertainment himself? 102 00:06:55,966 --> 00:06:57,433 TRE JOHNSON: Yes. 103 00:06:57,433 --> 00:07:01,333 I mean, the tough answer might be that it could be both. 104 00:07:01,333 --> 00:07:06,200 He might want to actually -- you know, I think this is a subversion of pop culture typically 105 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,766 being the thing that is an escapism, that makes us feel good and makes us feel happy. 106 00:07:09,766 --> 00:07:14,533 I have been saying, watching this season's "Atlanta," one of the greatest things that 107 00:07:14,533 --> 00:07:18,700 he's been doing about this is changing the expectations on what we're doing in terms 108 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:21,933 of engaging with traditional pop culture mediums. 109 00:07:21,933 --> 00:07:26,733 And so both "Atlanta" and "This Is America" are choosing to take on a darker, harsher 110 00:07:26,733 --> 00:07:31,500 tone, which is, like, confounding the expectations a lot of people are expecting. 111 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:36,500 And I think, lastly, this fits -- "This Is America," "Atlanta" fits into a wider conversation 112 00:07:38,533 --> 00:07:41,533 around pop culture or tapestry that black artists are doing. 113 00:07:41,533 --> 00:07:46,533 If you look at "Get Out," you look at "Lemonade," you look at even some of the things that Solange 114 00:07:48,500 --> 00:07:51,500 Knowles has done with "A Seat at the Table," and Janelle Monae's most recent album, they're 115 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:56,500 all looking to choose to pick up the baton of having America really look at a lot of 116 00:07:58,466 --> 00:08:02,366 the contradictions around what we say we value about black lives, and then how we actually 117 00:08:04,366 --> 00:08:07,066 address black entertainment when it chooses to stand up and represent the kind of like 118 00:08:07,066 --> 00:08:11,300 chaotic, nuanced experiences around black lives inside of the wider society. 119 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:14,633 JEFFREY BROWN: All right, Tre Johnson of "Rolling Stone," thank you very much. 120 00:08:14,633 --> 00:08:15,833 TRE JOHNSON: Thank you.