WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:04.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And now to the analysis of Shields and Brooks. That is syndicated columnist 00:04.433 --> 00:07.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Mark Shields and New York Times columnist David Brooks. 00:07.733 --> 00:12.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Hello to both of you on this Friday night. We haven't seen you since the election was 00:14.166 --> 00:16.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% declared, Joe Biden was declared the winner, Mark. 00:16.966 --> 00:21.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, what do you make -- we have to ask you, what do you make of the result and how some 00:21.300 --> 00:25.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of these final states went, Arizona, Georgia and the others? 00:25.133 --> 00:28.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MARK SHIELDS: Well, I think I predicted every one of them, Judy. 00:28.900 --> 00:29.900 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% No, I... 00:29.900 --> 00:32.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 00:32.433 --> 00:35.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% MARK SHIELDS: I guess I'm not surprised. Surprised at the margin, and the margin, that it was 00:37.533 --> 00:39.600 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% so close. 00:39.600 --> 00:44.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think that, in retrospect, reflection, the campaign of Donald Trump deserves enormous 00:47.100 --> 00:52.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% credit for identifying and motivating and turning out voters who had -- were not regular 00:58.800 --> 01:03.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% voters and gave Trump the number of votes he had, and probably made the difference almost 01:05.800 --> 01:10.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% surely in the Republicans picking up House seats and in retaining the Senate. 01:12.366 --> 01:15.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But the victory, it was rather remarkable to be here in Washington at the time. It had 01:15.900 --> 01:20.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a V.J. Day quality to it, I mean, not to that dimension, victory over Japan in World War 01:22.833 --> 01:26.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% II, but sort of the public exhilaration, people smiling, just a goodwill, which had to be 01:30.500 --> 01:34.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% rather unsettling for the president as he came back from a golf club, because he had 01:34.233 --> 01:36.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to go right by it in Lafayette Park... 01:36.666 --> 01:38.800 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Right. 01:38.800 --> 01:42.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MARK SHIELDS: ... and to see this sort of sense of gaiety and New Year's Eve festivity 01:43.300 --> 01:45.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that was felt. 01:45.400 --> 01:48.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: David, what did you make of the result, of the call, the final call, how 01:49.733 --> 01:52.400 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% it ended? 01:52.400 --> 01:55.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Well, there was people playing "Glory Days," a Springsteen song, in my neighborhood, 01:55.000 --> 01:58.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% too. And so, at least in urban America, there's a lot of joy. 01:58.700 --> 02:01.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Five points is a pretty good victory, bigger than I thought it would be on election night 02:01.900 --> 02:05.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or thereabouts. And so it's a good Biden win. 02:05.366 --> 02:09.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I happen to think Joe Biden was the only Democratic nominee who could have won this election. 02:09.433 --> 02:14.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There was a lot more pro-Trump support than we thought. There was not a great pro-Democratic 02:15.633 --> 02:17.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Party generic support as much as we thought. 02:17.666 --> 02:22.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think the Democrats need to get over this idea that they are the emerging majority party. 02:25.033 --> 02:28.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% This idea has been around because of demographic things or other things. And there's been an 02:30.233 --> 02:33.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% assumption that demography is on our side, and I think it's just time to accept that's 02:33.166 --> 02:35.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% just not going to happen. 02:35.200 --> 02:38.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We're going to be a pretty 50/50 country. I will believe a change when I see it. And 02:38.533 --> 02:42.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's becoming more polarized on education, with Democrats becoming the party more and 02:42.500 --> 02:46.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% more of the college-educated, the Republicans becoming more and more the college -- the 02:46.433 --> 02:48.400 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% high school-educated. 02:48.400 --> 02:52.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, geography, the urban/rural divide is wider than ever. And so we are just locked 02:54.333 --> 02:59.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% into some sort of either gridlock or compromise. We will see. But it's 50/50 almost. 03:01.166 --> 03:03.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark, what about that? I mean, you mentioned that the Democrats didn't do 03:03.833 --> 03:08.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as well as they thought they would in the Senate or in the House. They lost seats in 03:10.033 --> 03:11.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the House. 03:11.266 --> 03:13.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% MARK SHIELDS: No. No, that's right, Judy. 03:13.366 --> 03:17.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% David makes a good point. This has been a year of expectations. If you recall -- and 03:19.766 --> 03:23.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% raised expectations. Donald Trump raised the expectations going into the first debate that 03:25.333 --> 03:30.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Vice President Biden was non compos, that he couldn't finish a sentence, that he would 03:32.233 --> 03:36.566 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% fall asleep on the stage, none of which, of course, happened. 03:36.566 --> 03:40.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Senator -- Vice President Biden handled himself well, prevailed. And that may have been the 03:40.900 --> 03:45.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% defining event of the fall campaign. 03:48.200 --> 03:51.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Democrats had expectations, great expectations, about winning the Senate, about enlarging 03:52.766 --> 03:57.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% their House majority, all of which came up quite short. 03:59.366 --> 04:04.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And it -- I think the argument that one-party control is strong, that there was a resistance 04:06.900 --> 04:11.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to that, the Republicans made the case. And I think just language like defund the police 04:14.766 --> 04:19.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% really came back to haunt Democrats and hurt them in suburban and marginal districts. 04:21.766 --> 04:26.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think you will see a fractiousness and a division. It's already there within the 04:28.533 --> 04:32.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Democratic House Caucus, within the Democratic Party at large over this, and that there isn't 04:35.100 --> 04:40.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a natural Democratic majority that is inevitable in the country. 04:41.533 --> 04:43.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think that was a lesson to be learned on November 3. 04:43.800 --> 04:48.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: So, David, is there a way to put a finer point on it? The country is divided, 04:50.433 --> 04:52.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% as you're both saying. There's not a natural Democratic majority. 04:52.966 --> 04:55.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So, what is -- what do we have? 04:55.166 --> 05:00.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Well, we probably have gridlock, but I hope not. 05:02.166 --> 05:04.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I spent a bunch of this week calling around the Senate, speaking to senators like Mitt 05:04.866 --> 05:09.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Romney, and ask him, is there any way to get 60 votes around some issues, just so we can 05:11.033 --> 05:13.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% pass some things and help some people? 05:13.066 --> 05:17.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And Romney came up with a whole bunch of topics. There were the dreamers, the immigration, 05:19.600 --> 05:24.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% some budget stuff, some immigrant -- health care stuff, prescription drugs. He said, sure. 05:26.266 --> 05:29.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And then I talked to other aides, and they came up with national service, infrastructure. 05:29.533 --> 05:33.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so there's at least a eagerness on the part of a lot of senators to actually vote 05:33.700 --> 05:38.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for legislation, something they have not been allowed to do under Mitch McConnell, and pass 05:40.000 --> 05:42.066 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% things. 05:42.066 --> 05:45.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Will McConnell allow votes to come to the floor? Will he cooperate and play ball? Well, 05:45.133 --> 05:50.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% nobody would bet on that. But I'm struck by a desire to get out of the stuckness that 05:51.533 --> 05:56.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% has marked legislative bodies for the past couple years. 05:57.733 --> 05:59.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Interesting about what Romney. 05:59.666 --> 06:04.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But speaking of Mitch McConnell, Mark, he is staying with President Trump's insistence 06:06.833 --> 06:10.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that he's not only within his rights to challenge the election, he's not conceding, that he 06:11.866 --> 06:14.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% needs to pursue every legal avenue. 06:14.866 --> 06:19.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% In fact, Republicans are virtually in lockstep. Only a few of them don't support the president. 06:21.866 --> 06:26.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What lasting impacts of that? Is it just -- are we going to be over it soon? What do you see? 06:28.233 --> 06:33.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MARK SHIELDS: Judy, that Donald Trump is going out as a sore loser. 06:34.933 --> 06:39.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think he's making a serious mistake. And his future obviously is not bright. I mean, 06:43.133 --> 06:48.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% he could talk about '24, but there's an awful lot of investigations and judicial action 06:48.900 --> 06:52.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% between now and 2024. 06:52.500 --> 06:57.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But Mitch McConnell is kind of fascinating. If you go back to December of 2008, which 06:59.466 --> 07:02.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I did -- and you're free to look at it -- the Senate had a send-off for Joe Biden, who had 07:05.000 --> 07:08.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% just been elected vice president. And senators made their statements. 07:08.533 --> 07:13.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Mitch McConnell wrote his own statement. It was quite moving and quite personal about 07:15.500 --> 07:19.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Joe Biden, and that Joe Biden was the rare creature who could reach across the aisle 07:20.633 --> 07:25.366 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% to Jesse Helms or to Strom Thurmond or to me, and he became my friend. 07:27.333 --> 07:31.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I think this will be tested. I really do. I think he's awfully -- he's key. He's important 07:33.100 --> 07:35.166 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% in this. 07:35.166 --> 07:39.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And one thing that was lost in the campaign is that Joe Biden is one of the great retail 07:41.733 --> 07:45.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% politicians of his generation. He is wonderful with people, people of all sorts. He was deprived 07:47.366 --> 07:50.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of that in the campaign. We never saw it. We never saw him with people in the campaign. 07:50.766 --> 07:53.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They ran a good campaign, a disciplined campaign. 07:53.600 --> 07:58.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But I think, when you get Joe Biden in the White House, as president, and bringing those 08:01.133 --> 08:05.566 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% personal skills together, I think the chances are improved. And I'm more optimistic, I guess, 08:07.000 --> 08:09.000 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% maybe than David is. 08:09.000 --> 08:12.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David, I want to ask you about the Biden prospects. 08:12.533 --> 08:17.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But just quickly on the president's refusal to concede, is this something that leaves 08:17.200 --> 08:20.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a lasting scar, or does it go away quickly? What do you see? 08:20.833 --> 08:25.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Well, I think Trump has left a lasting scar. The whole entity, the whole 08:25.266 --> 08:29.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% entirety of the existential presence of Trump has left a lasting scar on our norms, on the 08:29.800 --> 08:33.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% way we feel with each other, about the way the world looks at us. 08:33.266 --> 08:38.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Dictators around the world are happy to see an American president denying election results. 08:38.133 --> 08:43.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That gives them encouragement and gives them a set of norms they can hew to. 08:45.233 --> 08:48.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% I expect him to go. You can feel the air coming out of the balloon, the stages of grief. What 08:50.600 --> 08:53.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is it, denial, then rage, and then acceptance, though, with Trump, there's more rage and 08:55.666 --> 08:59.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% more denial. But you feel the Republicans walking away, rightly or wrongly, just not 09:01.766 --> 09:05.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% wanting to get in front of the train and push him out. 09:05.733 --> 09:06.733 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's the wrong metaphor. 09:06.733 --> 09:08.733 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 09:08.733 --> 09:12.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: But you feel him losing momentum. And I do think he will eventually whimper 09:15.933 --> 09:20.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% out, probably without ever admitting defeat, and probably without attending Joe Biden's 09:20.033 --> 09:21.033 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% inauguration. 09:21.033 --> 09:22.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But that is the way the man is. 09:22.866 --> 09:25.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: A lot of people wondering like that. 09:25.433 --> 09:26.433 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (CROSSTALK) 09:26.433 --> 09:27.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David... 09:27.433 --> 09:29.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% MARK SHIELDS: Oh. 09:29.433 --> 09:33.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: I just wanted to ask David to -- on Biden's prospects, to respond to 09:34.566 --> 09:36.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Mark, what you said a moment ago. 09:36.633 --> 09:39.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, I'm maintaining my posture of unrealistic optimism. 09:39.733 --> 09:43.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so I do think there's some chance of actually working together. You look at the people Joe 09:43.500 --> 09:48.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Biden is hiring. They're experienced, Ron Klain, his chief of staff, experience, experienced 09:49.900 --> 09:51.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at pandemic fighting, experienced at Washington. 09:51.966 --> 09:56.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You look at the people running the Task Force, the COVID Task Force, Vivek Murthy, the former 09:58.633 --> 10:03.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% surgeon general. Atul Gawande is on that task force. We're just getting an A-team. 10:03.200 --> 10:08.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% With Trump, we never got the Republican A-team. With Biden, it looks like we're going to get 10:09.766 --> 10:12.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the Democratic A-team. So, that's got to make you feel good. 10:12.566 --> 10:16.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And I was struck, Dr. Murthy, when we talked to him a few minutes ago, used 10:16.666 --> 10:19.033 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the term humility several times. 10:19.033 --> 10:21.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Mark, I interrupted you. Go ahead. 10:21.466 --> 10:26.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MARK SHIELDS: No, I was just following up on the point of President Trump. 10:28.500 --> 10:31.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Here in Washington, Judy, power is the perception of power. If I think you have got power, and 10:33.633 --> 10:37.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% David thinks you have got power, and people think -- you have power. And that's the reality 10:39.466 --> 10:43.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% now. You can feel the power has moved from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. 10:45.100 --> 10:49.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And the world has called. Erdogan has called. The only unheard -- Kim Jong-un is on the 10:52.766 --> 10:57.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% line. No. But he is -- he will be probably writing a letter to Joe Biden. 10:57.633 --> 11:02.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But he and Putin are kind of the holdouts, the bitter-enders. But that's the reality, 11:05.266 --> 11:10.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that the power has left Donald Trump. And so the question, when does that reality set 11:11.666 --> 11:13.666 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in with him? 11:13.666 --> 11:18.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David, to put a punctuation mark, you see it coming? 11:20.033 --> 11:23.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I don't think we're going to -- I don't know if it'll be before Inauguration 11:23.666 --> 11:28.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Day, but Republicans are beginning to urge Trump to give Biden the press -- the intelligence 11:31.833 --> 11:33.866 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% briefings. 11:33.866 --> 11:35.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so, as they begin to do that, that's just part of a process of withdrawal. 11:35.933 --> 11:40.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And we will see about the inauguration. 11:42.900 --> 11:45.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% David Brooks, Mark Shields, on this Friday night, we thank you both so much. 11:45.300 --> 11:46.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% MARK SHIELDS: Thank you.