1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: And now to the analysis of Shields and Brooks. That is syndicated columnist 2 00:00:04,433 --> 00:00:07,733 Mark Shields and New York Times columnist David Brooks. 3 00:00:07,733 --> 00:00:12,733 Hello to both of you on this Friday night. We haven't seen you since the election was 4 00:00:14,166 --> 00:00:16,966 declared, Joe Biden was declared the winner, Mark. 5 00:00:16,966 --> 00:00:21,300 So, what do you make -- we have to ask you, what do you make of the result and how some 6 00:00:21,300 --> 00:00:25,133 of these final states went, Arizona, Georgia and the others? 7 00:00:25,133 --> 00:00:28,900 MARK SHIELDS: Well, I think I predicted every one of them, Judy. 8 00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:29,900 No, I... 9 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:32,433 (LAUGHTER) 10 00:00:32,433 --> 00:00:35,900 MARK SHIELDS: I guess I'm not surprised. Surprised at the margin, and the margin, that it was 11 00:00:37,533 --> 00:00:39,600 so close. 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,500 And I think that, in retrospect, reflection, the campaign of Donald Trump deserves enormous 13 00:00:47,100 --> 00:00:52,066 credit for identifying and motivating and turning out voters who had -- were not regular 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,766 voters and gave Trump the number of votes he had, and probably made the difference almost 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,400 surely in the Republicans picking up House seats and in retaining the Senate. 16 00:01:12,366 --> 00:01:15,900 But the victory, it was rather remarkable to be here in Washington at the time. It had 17 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:20,900 a V.J. Day quality to it, I mean, not to that dimension, victory over Japan in World War 18 00:01:22,833 --> 00:01:26,366 II, but sort of the public exhilaration, people smiling, just a goodwill, which had to be 19 00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:34,233 rather unsettling for the president as he came back from a golf club, because he had 20 00:01:34,233 --> 00:01:36,666 to go right by it in Lafayette Park... 21 00:01:36,666 --> 00:01:38,800 JUDY WOODRUFF: Right. 22 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,666 MARK SHIELDS: ... and to see this sort of sense of gaiety and New Year's Eve festivity 23 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:45,400 that was felt. 24 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,866 JUDY WOODRUFF: David, what did you make of the result, of the call, the final call, how 25 00:01:49,733 --> 00:01:52,400 it ended? 26 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,000 DAVID BROOKS: Well, there was people playing "Glory Days," a Springsteen song, in my neighborhood, 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,700 too. And so, at least in urban America, there's a lot of joy. 28 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:01,900 Five points is a pretty good victory, bigger than I thought it would be on election night 29 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:05,366 or thereabouts. And so it's a good Biden win. 30 00:02:05,366 --> 00:02:09,433 I happen to think Joe Biden was the only Democratic nominee who could have won this election. 31 00:02:09,433 --> 00:02:14,433 There was a lot more pro-Trump support than we thought. There was not a great pro-Democratic 32 00:02:15,633 --> 00:02:17,666 Party generic support as much as we thought. 33 00:02:17,666 --> 00:02:22,566 I think the Democrats need to get over this idea that they are the emerging majority party. 34 00:02:25,033 --> 00:02:28,233 This idea has been around because of demographic things or other things. And there's been an 35 00:02:30,233 --> 00:02:33,166 assumption that demography is on our side, and I think it's just time to accept that's 36 00:02:33,166 --> 00:02:35,200 just not going to happen. 37 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,533 We're going to be a pretty 50/50 country. I will believe a change when I see it. And 38 00:02:38,533 --> 00:02:42,500 it's becoming more polarized on education, with Democrats becoming the party more and 39 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:46,433 more of the college-educated, the Republicans becoming more and more the college -- the 40 00:02:46,433 --> 00:02:48,400 high school-educated. 41 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,433 And, geography, the urban/rural divide is wider than ever. And so we are just locked 42 00:02:54,333 --> 00:02:59,166 into some sort of either gridlock or compromise. We will see. But it's 50/50 almost. 43 00:03:01,166 --> 00:03:03,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark, what about that? I mean, you mentioned that the Democrats didn't do 44 00:03:03,833 --> 00:03:08,833 as well as they thought they would in the Senate or in the House. They lost seats in 45 00:03:10,033 --> 00:03:11,266 the House. 46 00:03:11,266 --> 00:03:13,366 MARK SHIELDS: No. No, that's right, Judy. 47 00:03:13,366 --> 00:03:17,800 David makes a good point. This has been a year of expectations. If you recall -- and 48 00:03:19,766 --> 00:03:23,100 raised expectations. Donald Trump raised the expectations going into the first debate that 49 00:03:25,333 --> 00:03:30,333 Vice President Biden was non compos, that he couldn't finish a sentence, that he would 50 00:03:32,233 --> 00:03:36,566 fall asleep on the stage, none of which, of course, happened. 51 00:03:36,566 --> 00:03:40,900 Senator -- Vice President Biden handled himself well, prevailed. And that may have been the 52 00:03:40,900 --> 00:03:45,900 defining event of the fall campaign. 53 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,333 Democrats had expectations, great expectations, about winning the Senate, about enlarging 54 00:03:52,766 --> 00:03:57,266 their House majority, all of which came up quite short. 55 00:03:59,366 --> 00:04:04,233 And it -- I think the argument that one-party control is strong, that there was a resistance 56 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:11,900 to that, the Republicans made the case. And I think just language like defund the police 57 00:04:14,766 --> 00:04:19,766 really came back to haunt Democrats and hurt them in suburban and marginal districts. 58 00:04:21,766 --> 00:04:26,500 And I think you will see a fractiousness and a division. It's already there within the 59 00:04:28,533 --> 00:04:32,766 Democratic House Caucus, within the Democratic Party at large over this, and that there isn't 60 00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:40,100 a natural Democratic majority that is inevitable in the country. 61 00:04:41,533 --> 00:04:43,800 And I think that was a lesson to be learned on November 3. 62 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:48,800 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, David, is there a way to put a finer point on it? The country is divided, 63 00:04:50,433 --> 00:04:52,966 as you're both saying. There's not a natural Democratic majority. 64 00:04:52,966 --> 00:04:55,166 So, what is -- what do we have? 65 00:04:55,166 --> 00:05:00,200 DAVID BROOKS: Well, we probably have gridlock, but I hope not. 66 00:05:02,166 --> 00:05:04,866 I spent a bunch of this week calling around the Senate, speaking to senators like Mitt 67 00:05:04,866 --> 00:05:09,866 Romney, and ask him, is there any way to get 60 votes around some issues, just so we can 68 00:05:11,033 --> 00:05:13,066 pass some things and help some people? 69 00:05:13,066 --> 00:05:17,566 And Romney came up with a whole bunch of topics. There were the dreamers, the immigration, 70 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,266 some budget stuff, some immigrant -- health care stuff, prescription drugs. He said, sure. 71 00:05:26,266 --> 00:05:29,533 And then I talked to other aides, and they came up with national service, infrastructure. 72 00:05:29,533 --> 00:05:33,700 And so there's at least a eagerness on the part of a lot of senators to actually vote 73 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:38,700 for legislation, something they have not been allowed to do under Mitch McConnell, and pass 74 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,066 things. 75 00:05:42,066 --> 00:05:45,133 Will McConnell allow votes to come to the floor? Will he cooperate and play ball? Well, 76 00:05:45,133 --> 00:05:50,133 nobody would bet on that. But I'm struck by a desire to get out of the stuckness that 77 00:05:51,533 --> 00:05:56,400 has marked legislative bodies for the past couple years. 78 00:05:57,733 --> 00:05:59,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: Interesting about what Romney. 79 00:05:59,666 --> 00:06:04,400 But speaking of Mitch McConnell, Mark, he is staying with President Trump's insistence 80 00:06:06,833 --> 00:06:10,600 that he's not only within his rights to challenge the election, he's not conceding, that he 81 00:06:11,866 --> 00:06:14,866 needs to pursue every legal avenue. 82 00:06:14,866 --> 00:06:19,866 In fact, Republicans are virtually in lockstep. Only a few of them don't support the president. 83 00:06:21,866 --> 00:06:26,666 What lasting impacts of that? Is it just -- are we going to be over it soon? What do you see? 84 00:06:28,233 --> 00:06:33,000 MARK SHIELDS: Judy, that Donald Trump is going out as a sore loser. 85 00:06:34,933 --> 00:06:39,933 I think he's making a serious mistake. And his future obviously is not bright. I mean, 86 00:06:43,133 --> 00:06:48,133 he could talk about '24, but there's an awful lot of investigations and judicial action 87 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:52,500 between now and 2024. 88 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:57,500 But Mitch McConnell is kind of fascinating. If you go back to December of 2008, which 89 00:06:59,466 --> 00:07:02,966 I did -- and you're free to look at it -- the Senate had a send-off for Joe Biden, who had 90 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,533 just been elected vice president. And senators made their statements. 91 00:07:08,533 --> 00:07:13,533 Mitch McConnell wrote his own statement. It was quite moving and quite personal about 92 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:19,033 Joe Biden, and that Joe Biden was the rare creature who could reach across the aisle 93 00:07:20,633 --> 00:07:25,366 to Jesse Helms or to Strom Thurmond or to me, and he became my friend. 94 00:07:27,333 --> 00:07:31,933 I think this will be tested. I really do. I think he's awfully -- he's key. He's important 95 00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:35,166 in this. 96 00:07:35,166 --> 00:07:39,366 And one thing that was lost in the campaign is that Joe Biden is one of the great retail 97 00:07:41,733 --> 00:07:45,066 politicians of his generation. He is wonderful with people, people of all sorts. He was deprived 98 00:07:47,366 --> 00:07:50,766 of that in the campaign. We never saw it. We never saw him with people in the campaign. 99 00:07:50,766 --> 00:07:53,600 They ran a good campaign, a disciplined campaign. 100 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:58,600 But I think, when you get Joe Biden in the White House, as president, and bringing those 101 00:08:01,133 --> 00:08:05,566 personal skills together, I think the chances are improved. And I'm more optimistic, I guess, 102 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,000 maybe than David is. 103 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David, I want to ask you about the Biden prospects. 104 00:08:12,533 --> 00:08:17,200 But just quickly on the president's refusal to concede, is this something that leaves 105 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,833 a lasting scar, or does it go away quickly? What do you see? 106 00:08:20,833 --> 00:08:25,266 DAVID BROOKS: Well, I think Trump has left a lasting scar. The whole entity, the whole 107 00:08:25,266 --> 00:08:29,800 entirety of the existential presence of Trump has left a lasting scar on our norms, on the 108 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,266 way we feel with each other, about the way the world looks at us. 109 00:08:33,266 --> 00:08:38,133 Dictators around the world are happy to see an American president denying election results. 110 00:08:38,133 --> 00:08:43,133 That gives them encouragement and gives them a set of norms they can hew to. 111 00:08:45,233 --> 00:08:48,566 I expect him to go. You can feel the air coming out of the balloon, the stages of grief. What 112 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,700 is it, denial, then rage, and then acceptance, though, with Trump, there's more rage and 113 00:08:55,666 --> 00:08:59,800 more denial. But you feel the Republicans walking away, rightly or wrongly, just not 114 00:09:01,766 --> 00:09:05,733 wanting to get in front of the train and push him out. 115 00:09:05,733 --> 00:09:06,733 That's the wrong metaphor. 116 00:09:06,733 --> 00:09:08,733 (LAUGHTER) 117 00:09:08,733 --> 00:09:12,733 DAVID BROOKS: But you feel him losing momentum. And I do think he will eventually whimper 118 00:09:15,933 --> 00:09:20,033 out, probably without ever admitting defeat, and probably without attending Joe Biden's 119 00:09:20,033 --> 00:09:21,033 inauguration. 120 00:09:21,033 --> 00:09:22,866 But that is the way the man is. 121 00:09:22,866 --> 00:09:25,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: A lot of people wondering like that. 122 00:09:25,433 --> 00:09:26,433 (CROSSTALK) 123 00:09:26,433 --> 00:09:27,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David... 124 00:09:27,433 --> 00:09:29,433 MARK SHIELDS: Oh. 125 00:09:29,433 --> 00:09:33,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: I just wanted to ask David to -- on Biden's prospects, to respond to 126 00:09:34,566 --> 00:09:36,633 Mark, what you said a moment ago. 127 00:09:36,633 --> 00:09:39,733 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, I'm maintaining my posture of unrealistic optimism. 128 00:09:39,733 --> 00:09:43,500 And so I do think there's some chance of actually working together. You look at the people Joe 129 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:48,500 Biden is hiring. They're experienced, Ron Klain, his chief of staff, experience, experienced 130 00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:51,966 at pandemic fighting, experienced at Washington. 131 00:09:51,966 --> 00:09:56,700 You look at the people running the Task Force, the COVID Task Force, Vivek Murthy, the former 132 00:09:58,633 --> 00:10:03,200 surgeon general. Atul Gawande is on that task force. We're just getting an A-team. 133 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,200 With Trump, we never got the Republican A-team. With Biden, it looks like we're going to get 134 00:10:09,766 --> 00:10:12,566 the Democratic A-team. So, that's got to make you feel good. 135 00:10:12,566 --> 00:10:16,666 JUDY WOODRUFF: And I was struck, Dr. Murthy, when we talked to him a few minutes ago, used 136 00:10:16,666 --> 00:10:19,033 the term humility several times. 137 00:10:19,033 --> 00:10:21,466 Mark, I interrupted you. Go ahead. 138 00:10:21,466 --> 00:10:26,466 MARK SHIELDS: No, I was just following up on the point of President Trump. 139 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:31,633 Here in Washington, Judy, power is the perception of power. If I think you have got power, and 140 00:10:33,633 --> 00:10:37,533 David thinks you have got power, and people think -- you have power. And that's the reality 141 00:10:39,466 --> 00:10:43,166 now. You can feel the power has moved from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. 142 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:49,533 And the world has called. Erdogan has called. The only unheard -- Kim Jong-un is on the 143 00:10:52,766 --> 00:10:57,633 line. No. But he is -- he will be probably writing a letter to Joe Biden. 144 00:10:57,633 --> 00:11:02,600 But he and Putin are kind of the holdouts, the bitter-enders. But that's the reality, 145 00:11:05,266 --> 00:11:10,266 that the power has left Donald Trump. And so the question, when does that reality set 146 00:11:11,666 --> 00:11:13,666 in with him? 147 00:11:13,666 --> 00:11:18,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: And, David, to put a punctuation mark, you see it coming? 148 00:11:20,033 --> 00:11:23,666 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I don't think we're going to -- I don't know if it'll be before Inauguration 149 00:11:23,666 --> 00:11:28,666 Day, but Republicans are beginning to urge Trump to give Biden the press -- the intelligence 150 00:11:31,833 --> 00:11:33,866 briefings. 151 00:11:33,866 --> 00:11:35,933 And so, as they begin to do that, that's just part of a process of withdrawal. 152 00:11:35,933 --> 00:11:40,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: And we will see about the inauguration. 153 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:45,300 David Brooks, Mark Shields, on this Friday night, we thank you both so much. 154 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:46,833 MARK SHIELDS: Thank you.