1 00:00:02,133 --> 00:00:04,666 NICK SCHIFRIN: This is the season of reflection on the things that bind us together, the things 2 00:00:04,666 --> 00:00:06,566 that matter most. 3 00:00:06,566 --> 00:00:10,333 Judy Woodruff recently spoke to a man who combines religious faith with the secular 4 00:00:10,333 --> 00:00:12,833 powers of inspiration and love. 5 00:00:12,833 --> 00:00:17,733 JUDY WOODRUFF: As the presiding leader of the Episcopal Church in the United States, 6 00:00:17,733 --> 00:00:22,533 the Most Reverend Michael Curry leads one of the nation's oldest denominations. 7 00:00:22,533 --> 00:00:27,533 Last week, he participated in a state funeral of former President George H.W. Bush at Washington's 8 00:00:29,533 --> 00:00:33,800 National Cathedral, but he's much more widely known for the sermon he delivered last May 9 00:00:35,833 --> 00:00:39,100 during the marriage ceremony for Britain Duke and duchess of Sussex, Prince Harry and Meghan 10 00:00:40,533 --> 00:00:41,533 Markle. 11 00:00:41,533 --> 00:00:43,466 MOST REV. 12 00:00:43,466 --> 00:00:44,700 ®MD-BMICHAEL CURRY, Episcopal Church: When love is the way, then no child will go 13 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:46,966 to bed hungry in this world ever again. 14 00:00:46,966 --> 00:00:51,933 When love is the way, we will let justice roll down like a mighty stream and righteousness 15 00:00:54,366 --> 00:00:55,900 like an ever-flowing river. 16 00:00:55,900 --> 00:01:00,866 When love is the way, poverty will become history. 17 00:01:02,333 --> 00:01:05,166 When love is the way, the earth will be a sanctuary. 18 00:01:05,166 --> 00:01:09,233 JUDY WOODRUFF: That sermon formed the basis of Bishop Curry's latest book, "The Power 19 00:01:09,233 --> 00:01:10,733 of Love." 20 00:01:10,733 --> 00:01:11,733 Welcome with back to the "NewsHour." 21 00:01:11,733 --> 00:01:12,733 MOST REV. 22 00:01:12,733 --> 00:01:13,733 MICHAEL CURRY: Thank you. 23 00:01:13,733 --> 00:01:15,800 Good to be back. 24 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you threw yourself into that sermon, but you write in the book that, 25 00:01:17,833 --> 00:01:21,333 when they approached you about preaching, at first, you thought they weren't serious. 26 00:01:21,333 --> 00:01:22,333 MOST REV. 27 00:01:22,333 --> 00:01:24,366 MICHAEL CURRY: Well, yes. 28 00:01:24,366 --> 00:01:27,133 I remember the archbishop of Canterbury called a member of my staff, because I was traveling 29 00:01:27,133 --> 00:01:29,133 somewhere. 30 00:01:29,133 --> 00:01:32,400 And when with the staff member talked with me, I said, look, it is not April fools. 31 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:33,400 What do you really want? 32 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:34,400 What is going on? 33 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:35,633 And I couldn't believe it. 34 00:01:35,633 --> 00:01:38,533 And he had to convince me that it was for real. 35 00:01:38,533 --> 00:01:42,033 JUDY WOODRUFF: How did you go about deciding what to say in that sermon? 36 00:01:42,033 --> 00:01:44,166 MOST REV. 37 00:01:44,166 --> 00:01:48,000 MICHAEL CURRY: You know, the truth is, I had to wait until I knew what the Bible passage 38 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,933 that was going to be the centerpiece, if you will, of the service. 39 00:01:50,933 --> 00:01:55,233 And the couple and their staff and the archbishop and the dean of the chapel were all involved 40 00:01:55,233 --> 00:01:58,900 in conversations about what stricture passage would they use. 41 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:03,866 When they landed on Song of Solomon or Song of Songs, then I knew what trajectory to take, 42 00:02:05,866 --> 00:02:09,733 because actually if you look at Song of Songs, it actually is love poetry between a couple. 43 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:13,933 And they are talking about their love for each other. 44 00:02:13,933 --> 00:02:15,833 And they are going back and forth. 45 00:02:15,833 --> 00:02:18,600 And there is the Jerusalem chorus, kind of like the Greek chorus. 46 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,300 And they're in the background, kind of -- they're almost -- it's sort of like Gladys Knight 47 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:23,500 and the Pips. 48 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:25,533 They're kind of the Pips in the background. 49 00:02:25,533 --> 00:02:29,666 And then all of a sudden, after they have talked about why they love each other, the 50 00:02:29,666 --> 00:02:31,933 woman, it's almost as though she really stops. 51 00:02:31,933 --> 00:02:34,433 It's like, she stops in place. 52 00:02:34,433 --> 00:02:35,733 And she's saying, wait a minute. 53 00:02:35,733 --> 00:02:37,600 We didn't generate this low. 54 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,066 We're not the source of this love. 55 00:02:39,066 --> 00:02:41,133 We're experiencing it. 56 00:02:41,133 --> 00:02:45,800 And she says -- though she begins to point to the transcendent source of that love, which 57 00:02:47,866 --> 00:02:51,100 ultimately is God, the source of all love, and that's where the text took its clue, and 58 00:02:52,333 --> 00:02:54,400 the sermon evolved from there 59 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: And it grew naturally, Bishop Curry, out of many sermons you have given 60 00:02:59,566 --> 00:03:01,733 before. 61 00:03:01,733 --> 00:03:03,666 Obviously, this one's unique, but you have been preaching about love, the power of love, 62 00:03:03,666 --> 00:03:06,233 which is a title of the book, for a long time. 63 00:03:06,233 --> 00:03:07,233 MOST REV. 64 00:03:07,233 --> 00:03:09,233 MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 65 00:03:09,233 --> 00:03:12,000 I really do believe, certainly, as a Christian clergy person, that the heart and soul of 66 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,700 the Christian message and the great tradition, religious traditions of the world is that 67 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:21,133 the key to life is loving God and loving each other, that that's the key. 68 00:03:21,133 --> 00:03:25,733 I mean, there's a lot of complexity as to how you do it, and work it out practically. 69 00:03:25,733 --> 00:03:30,733 But if you start from that core principle of unselfish, sacrificial, unconditional love, 70 00:03:33,266 --> 00:03:38,100 you will navigate your way through life, even its most complex and difficult sides and dimensions. 71 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,133 JUDY WOODRUFF: Why do people like you have to keep preaching that sermon? 72 00:03:42,133 --> 00:03:47,133 Why is that message, why has it been so hard for that message to sink in, do you think? 73 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000 MOST REV. 74 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,000 MICHAEL CURRY: You know what? 75 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,000 I have got a theory. 76 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,000 And that's all it is. 77 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,533 It's my theory. 78 00:03:53,533 --> 00:03:55,200 But I used to think of the opposite of love is hate. 79 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,433 And, on some levels, that makes sense. 80 00:03:57,433 --> 00:04:02,400 But what I'm beginning to see is that, if you look at love as the New Testament talks 81 00:04:04,433 --> 00:04:07,233 about, as Jesus of Nazareth talks about it, he talks about love most consistently as he's 82 00:04:07,233 --> 00:04:10,466 about to give up his life. 83 00:04:10,466 --> 00:04:13,900 And at one point, he even says, greater love has no one than this, but that they give up 84 00:04:13,900 --> 00:04:15,600 their life for their friends. 85 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,466 The opposite of love is not simply hatred. 86 00:04:18,466 --> 00:04:23,466 The opposite of love is selfishness, self-centeredness, which the religious traditions have always 87 00:04:26,066 --> 00:04:29,566 identified as the root source of all the dilemmas that are created by human beings, this selfishness. 88 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,133 Love is the opposite of that, the antidote to that, if you will. 89 00:04:36,133 --> 00:04:41,133 And the reason it's difficult for us is, healthy self-respect and self-love can quickly become 90 00:04:43,433 --> 00:04:46,000 selfishness, if we let it. 91 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,866 You need healthy self-respect, but the selfishness, when I become the center of the universe, 92 00:04:50,866 --> 00:04:54,066 and you're the periphery, it's all about me, and the heck with you. 93 00:04:54,066 --> 00:04:55,733 And that even includes God. 94 00:04:55,733 --> 00:04:59,600 If I'm the center of the universe, well, God's on the periphery too. 95 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,133 It's kind of a reverse Copernican Revolution, if you... 96 00:05:02,133 --> 00:05:03,133 (LAUGHTER) 97 00:05:03,133 --> 00:05:05,566 MOST REV. 98 00:05:05,566 --> 00:05:07,566 MICHAEL CURRY: And so that's why it's so difficult, because we always live in the tension between 99 00:05:07,566 --> 00:05:10,433 healthy self-esteem and self-centeredness. 100 00:05:10,433 --> 00:05:15,433 JUDY WOODRUFF: And you -- in the sermons that are excerpted in the book, you take that concept 101 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:22,700 of love, as you did it when you were preaching at the -- at the wedding, and you talk about 102 00:05:25,166 --> 00:05:28,166 how it relates to the problems we face as a people, as a humanity, whether it's immigration, 103 00:05:30,066 --> 00:05:33,566 in this country right now, the plight of migrants, whether it's racial injustice. 104 00:05:35,533 --> 00:05:38,800 And you talk about making it a practical thing that people live beyond just what they think 105 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:41,900 about in church every Sunday. 106 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:42,900 MOST REV. 107 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:44,133 MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 108 00:05:44,133 --> 00:05:46,300 It's -- the truth is, love is not a sentiment. 109 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:48,266 It's a commitment. 110 00:05:48,266 --> 00:05:52,233 It's a decision and a commitment to seek the good and the welfare and the well-being of 111 00:05:52,233 --> 00:05:57,233 others, sometimes even above my own unenlightened self-interest, to borrow from the philosophers. 112 00:05:59,700 --> 00:06:03,800 And the truth is that you can't build a society, there is no social compact, there is no functioning 113 00:06:05,766 --> 00:06:10,166 democratic society, there is no freedom, true freedom, when everybody is functioning solely 114 00:06:11,533 --> 00:06:13,733 on their own unenlightened self-interest. 115 00:06:13,733 --> 00:06:18,033 If it's all about me, you actually have us tearing ourselves apart. 116 00:06:18,033 --> 00:06:22,933 Somehow, we have got to look for common good, for the good of others. 117 00:06:22,933 --> 00:06:27,533 It's the samaritan road, the parable of the good samaritan in the New Testament, about 118 00:06:27,533 --> 00:06:32,533 the one who is willing to risk to save another person's life, to help another person's life. 119 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:38,600 Selfishness is the most destructive force in all of creation. 120 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,600 But selflessness is the most creative power that actually exists, because that's the nature 121 00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:47,800 of God. 122 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,866 JUDY WOODRUFF: And how are we doing as a country right now when it comes to selfishness? 123 00:06:49,866 --> 00:06:51,100 MOST REV. 124 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:51,866 MICHAEL CURRY: Well, we're struggling. 125 00:06:51,866 --> 00:06:52,866 But it's a mix. 126 00:06:52,866 --> 00:06:53,866 It's a mix. 127 00:06:53,866 --> 00:06:55,100 But we are struggling. 128 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:57,100 We're in the midst of a great struggle. 129 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:01,566 And I think some of our identity as a nation, if you will, is really rooted in the result 130 00:07:03,466 --> 00:07:07,033 of that struggle, whether immigration and the migration of peoples. 131 00:07:07,033 --> 00:07:09,066 Our capacity... 132 00:07:09,066 --> 00:07:10,700 JUDY WOODRUFF: And you -- one of the sermons you preach in here is at a detention center... 133 00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:11,700 MOST REV. 134 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:13,433 MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 135 00:07:13,433 --> 00:07:14,100 JUDY WOODRUFF: ... where families are being kept apart from one another. 136 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:14,966 MOST REV. 137 00:07:14,966 --> 00:07:17,000 MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 138 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,200 And that sermon was -- it actually was an example of, how do you put love in action? 139 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,433 And, in the sermon, I said, we do not come in hatred. 140 00:07:22,433 --> 00:07:25,333 We do not come in anger or bigotry. 141 00:07:25,333 --> 00:07:28,300 We come because we believe what Jesus taught us. 142 00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:30,433 You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 143 00:07:30,433 --> 00:07:35,300 And we come with love for those who are detained here and women -- this was a women's detention 144 00:07:36,733 --> 00:07:38,800 center -- women who had been separated from their children. 145 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,900 We come in love for the prison guards, who have to do their job, whether we agree or 146 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:43,900 disagree. 147 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:46,000 We come in love for our nation. 148 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,900 But, because we truly love our nation, we will not sit idly by and allow our nation 149 00:07:51,033 --> 00:07:53,233 to do wrong, because we're better than that. 150 00:07:53,233 --> 00:07:56,266 If you love somebody, you want the best for them. 151 00:07:56,266 --> 00:07:58,266 And we came because we love our country. 152 00:07:58,266 --> 00:08:02,500 And we want our country to look like that lady in the New York Harbor, the Statue of 153 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:04,533 Liberty. 154 00:08:04,533 --> 00:08:06,766 Give me your tired, your hungry, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. 155 00:08:06,766 --> 00:08:08,100 That's America. 156 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:09,600 That's America. 157 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,833 That's the soul -- Jon Meacham's -- that's the soul of America. 158 00:08:12,833 --> 00:08:17,533 And we went to that detention center because we want America to find its soul again. 159 00:08:17,533 --> 00:08:22,533 JUDY WOODRUFF: Bishop Michael Curry, writing about love and relating it to so many larger 160 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:28,766 questions our country is dealing with right now, "The Power of Love: Sermons, Reflections, 161 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:34,666 and Wisdom to Uplift and Inspire," right now and this holiday season and throughout -- throughout 162 00:08:36,033 --> 00:08:37,033 the year. 163 00:08:37,033 --> 00:08:38,033 Thank you very much. 164 00:08:38,033 --> 00:08:39,033 MOST REV. 165 00:08:39,033 --> 00:08:40,033 MICHAEL CURRY: Thank you. 166 00:08:40,033 --> 00:08:40,166 God bless you.