WEBVTT 00:02.133 --> 00:04.666 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% NICK SCHIFRIN: This is the season of reflection on the things that bind us together, the things 00:04.666 --> 00:06.566 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that matter most. 00:06.566 --> 00:10.333 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Judy Woodruff recently spoke to a man who combines religious faith with the secular 00:10.333 --> 00:12.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% powers of inspiration and love. 00:12.833 --> 00:17.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: As the presiding leader of the Episcopal Church in the United States, 00:17.733 --> 00:22.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the Most Reverend Michael Curry leads one of the nation's oldest denominations. 00:22.533 --> 00:27.533 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% Last week, he participated in a state funeral of former President George H.W. Bush at Washington's 00:29.533 --> 00:33.800 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% National Cathedral, but he's much more widely known for the sermon he delivered last May 00:35.833 --> 00:39.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% during the marriage ceremony for Britain Duke and duchess of Sussex, Prince Harry and Meghan 00:40.533 --> 00:41.533 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Markle. 00:41.533 --> 00:43.466 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 00:43.466 --> 00:44.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% ®MD-BMICHAEL CURRY, Episcopal Church: When love is the way, then no child will go 00:44.700 --> 00:46.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to bed hungry in this world ever again. 00:46.966 --> 00:51.933 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% When love is the way, we will let justice roll down like a mighty stream and righteousness 00:54.366 --> 00:55.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% like an ever-flowing river. 00:55.900 --> 01:00.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% When love is the way, poverty will become history. 01:02.333 --> 01:05.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% When love is the way, the earth will be a sanctuary. 01:05.166 --> 01:09.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: That sermon formed the basis of Bishop Curry's latest book, "The Power 01:09.233 --> 01:10.733 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% of Love." 01:10.733 --> 01:11.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Welcome with back to the "NewsHour." 01:11.733 --> 01:12.733 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 01:12.733 --> 01:13.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% MICHAEL CURRY: Thank you. 01:13.733 --> 01:15.800 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Good to be back. 01:15.800 --> 01:17.833 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you threw yourself into that sermon, but you write in the book that, 01:17.833 --> 01:21.333 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% when they approached you about preaching, at first, you thought they weren't serious. 01:21.333 --> 01:22.333 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 01:22.333 --> 01:24.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% MICHAEL CURRY: Well, yes. 01:24.366 --> 01:27.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I remember the archbishop of Canterbury called a member of my staff, because I was traveling 01:27.133 --> 01:29.133 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% somewhere. 01:29.133 --> 01:32.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And when with the staff member talked with me, I said, look, it is not April fools. 01:32.400 --> 01:33.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% What do you really want? 01:33.400 --> 01:34.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% What is going on? 01:34.400 --> 01:35.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And I couldn't believe it. 01:35.633 --> 01:38.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And he had to convince me that it was for real. 01:38.533 --> 01:42.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: How did you go about deciding what to say in that sermon? 01:42.033 --> 01:44.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 01:44.166 --> 01:48.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% MICHAEL CURRY: You know, the truth is, I had to wait until I knew what the Bible passage 01:48.000 --> 01:50.933 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% that was going to be the centerpiece, if you will, of the service. 01:50.933 --> 01:55.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And the couple and their staff and the archbishop and the dean of the chapel were all involved 01:55.233 --> 01:58.900 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% in conversations about what stricture passage would they use. 01:58.900 --> 02:03.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% When they landed on Song of Solomon or Song of Songs, then I knew what trajectory to take, 02:05.866 --> 02:09.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% because actually if you look at Song of Songs, it actually is love poetry between a couple. 02:12.400 --> 02:13.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And they are talking about their love for each other. 02:13.933 --> 02:15.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And they are going back and forth. 02:15.833 --> 02:18.600 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And there is the Jerusalem chorus, kind of like the Greek chorus. 02:18.600 --> 02:22.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And they're in the background, kind of -- they're almost -- it's sort of like Gladys Knight 02:22.300 --> 02:23.500 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% and the Pips. 02:23.500 --> 02:25.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They're kind of the Pips in the background. 02:25.533 --> 02:29.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And then all of a sudden, after they have talked about why they love each other, the 02:29.666 --> 02:31.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% woman, it's almost as though she really stops. 02:31.933 --> 02:34.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It's like, she stops in place. 02:34.433 --> 02:35.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And she's saying, wait a minute. 02:35.733 --> 02:37.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% We didn't generate this low. 02:37.600 --> 02:39.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We're not the source of this love. 02:39.066 --> 02:41.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% We're experiencing it. 02:41.133 --> 02:45.800 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% And she says -- though she begins to point to the transcendent source of that love, which 02:47.866 --> 02:51.100 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% ultimately is God, the source of all love, and that's where the text took its clue, and 02:52.333 --> 02:54.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the sermon evolved from there 02:54.400 --> 02:59.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And it grew naturally, Bishop Curry, out of many sermons you have given 02:59.566 --> 03:01.733 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% before. 03:01.733 --> 03:03.666 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Obviously, this one's unique, but you have been preaching about love, the power of love, 03:03.666 --> 03:06.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% which is a title of the book, for a long time. 03:06.233 --> 03:07.233 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 03:07.233 --> 03:09.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 03:09.233 --> 03:12.000 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I really do believe, certainly, as a Christian clergy person, that the heart and soul of 03:12.000 --> 03:16.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the Christian message and the great tradition, religious traditions of the world is that 03:16.700 --> 03:21.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the key to life is loving God and loving each other, that that's the key. 03:21.133 --> 03:25.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% I mean, there's a lot of complexity as to how you do it, and work it out practically. 03:25.733 --> 03:30.733 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% But if you start from that core principle of unselfish, sacrificial, unconditional love, 03:33.266 --> 03:38.100 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% you will navigate your way through life, even its most complex and difficult sides and dimensions. 03:40.000 --> 03:42.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Why do people like you have to keep preaching that sermon? 03:42.133 --> 03:47.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Why is that message, why has it been so hard for that message to sink in, do you think? 03:48.000 --> 03:49.000 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 03:49.000 --> 03:50.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% MICHAEL CURRY: You know what? 03:50.000 --> 03:51.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I have got a theory. 03:51.000 --> 03:52.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% And that's all it is. 03:52.000 --> 03:53.533 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% It's my theory. 03:53.533 --> 03:55.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But I used to think of the opposite of love is hate. 03:55.200 --> 03:57.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And, on some levels, that makes sense. 03:57.433 --> 04:02.400 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% But what I'm beginning to see is that, if you look at love as the New Testament talks 04:04.433 --> 04:07.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% about, as Jesus of Nazareth talks about it, he talks about love most consistently as he's 04:07.233 --> 04:10.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% about to give up his life. 04:10.466 --> 04:13.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And at one point, he even says, greater love has no one than this, but that they give up 04:13.900 --> 04:15.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% their life for their friends. 04:15.600 --> 04:18.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The opposite of love is not simply hatred. 04:18.466 --> 04:23.466 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% The opposite of love is selfishness, self-centeredness, which the religious traditions have always 04:26.066 --> 04:29.566 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% identified as the root source of all the dilemmas that are created by human beings, this selfishness. 04:31.600 --> 04:36.133 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% Love is the opposite of that, the antidote to that, if you will. 04:36.133 --> 04:41.133 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And the reason it's difficult for us is, healthy self-respect and self-love can quickly become 04:43.433 --> 04:46.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% selfishness, if we let it. 04:46.000 --> 04:50.866 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% You need healthy self-respect, but the selfishness, when I become the center of the universe, 04:50.866 --> 04:54.066 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% and you're the periphery, it's all about me, and the heck with you. 04:54.066 --> 04:55.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And that even includes God. 04:55.733 --> 04:59.600 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% If I'm the center of the universe, well, God's on the periphery too. 04:59.600 --> 05:02.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's kind of a reverse Copernican Revolution, if you... 05:02.133 --> 05:03.133 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 05:03.133 --> 05:05.566 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 05:05.566 --> 05:07.566 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% MICHAEL CURRY: And so that's why it's so difficult, because we always live in the tension between 05:07.566 --> 05:10.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% healthy self-esteem and self-centeredness. 05:10.433 --> 05:15.433 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And you -- in the sermons that are excerpted in the book, you take that concept 05:17.700 --> 05:22.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% of love, as you did it when you were preaching at the -- at the wedding, and you talk about 05:25.166 --> 05:28.166 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% how it relates to the problems we face as a people, as a humanity, whether it's immigration, 05:30.066 --> 05:33.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% in this country right now, the plight of migrants, whether it's racial injustice. 05:35.533 --> 05:38.800 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And you talk about making it a practical thing that people live beyond just what they think 05:40.800 --> 05:41.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% about in church every Sunday. 05:41.900 --> 05:42.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 05:42.900 --> 05:44.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 05:44.133 --> 05:46.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's -- the truth is, love is not a sentiment. 05:46.300 --> 05:48.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% It's a commitment. 05:48.266 --> 05:52.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% It's a decision and a commitment to seek the good and the welfare and the well-being of 05:52.233 --> 05:57.233 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% others, sometimes even above my own unenlightened self-interest, to borrow from the philosophers. 05:59.700 --> 06:03.800 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% And the truth is that you can't build a society, there is no social compact, there is no functioning 06:05.766 --> 06:10.166 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% democratic society, there is no freedom, true freedom, when everybody is functioning solely 06:11.533 --> 06:13.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% on their own unenlightened self-interest. 06:13.733 --> 06:18.033 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% If it's all about me, you actually have us tearing ourselves apart. 06:18.033 --> 06:22.933 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% Somehow, we have got to look for common good, for the good of others. 06:22.933 --> 06:27.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% It's the samaritan road, the parable of the good samaritan in the New Testament, about 06:27.533 --> 06:32.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% the one who is willing to risk to save another person's life, to help another person's life. 06:34.100 --> 06:38.600 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% Selfishness is the most destructive force in all of creation. 06:38.600 --> 06:43.600 align:left position:10%,start line:71% size:80% But selflessness is the most creative power that actually exists, because that's the nature 06:45.700 --> 06:47.800 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% of God. 06:47.800 --> 06:49.866 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And how are we doing as a country right now when it comes to selfishness? 06:49.866 --> 06:51.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 06:51.100 --> 06:51.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% MICHAEL CURRY: Well, we're struggling. 06:51.866 --> 06:52.866 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% But it's a mix. 06:52.866 --> 06:53.866 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% It's a mix. 06:53.866 --> 06:55.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% But we are struggling. 06:55.100 --> 06:57.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We're in the midst of a great struggle. 06:57.100 --> 07:01.566 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And I think some of our identity as a nation, if you will, is really rooted in the result 07:03.466 --> 07:07.033 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% of that struggle, whether immigration and the migration of peoples. 07:07.033 --> 07:09.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Our capacity... 07:09.066 --> 07:10.700 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And you -- one of the sermons you preach in here is at a detention center... 07:10.700 --> 07:11.700 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 07:11.700 --> 07:13.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 07:13.433 --> 07:14.100 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: ... where families are being kept apart from one another. 07:14.100 --> 07:14.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 07:14.966 --> 07:17.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% MICHAEL CURRY: Yes. 07:17.000 --> 07:19.200 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And that sermon was -- it actually was an example of, how do you put love in action? 07:19.200 --> 07:22.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And, in the sermon, I said, we do not come in hatred. 07:22.433 --> 07:25.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We do not come in anger or bigotry. 07:25.333 --> 07:28.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% We come because we believe what Jesus taught us. 07:28.300 --> 07:30.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 07:30.433 --> 07:35.300 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And we come with love for those who are detained here and women -- this was a women's detention 07:36.733 --> 07:38.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% center -- women who had been separated from their children. 07:38.800 --> 07:42.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% We come in love for the prison guards, who have to do their job, whether we agree or 07:42.900 --> 07:43.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% disagree. 07:43.900 --> 07:46.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% We come in love for our nation. 07:46.000 --> 07:49.900 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% But, because we truly love our nation, we will not sit idly by and allow our nation 07:51.033 --> 07:53.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to do wrong, because we're better than that. 07:53.233 --> 07:56.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% If you love somebody, you want the best for them. 07:56.266 --> 07:58.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And we came because we love our country. 07:58.266 --> 08:02.500 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And we want our country to look like that lady in the New York Harbor, the Statue of 08:02.500 --> 08:04.533 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Liberty. 08:04.533 --> 08:06.766 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% Give me your tired, your hungry, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. 08:06.766 --> 08:08.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% That's America. 08:08.100 --> 08:09.600 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% That's America. 08:09.600 --> 08:12.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That's the soul -- Jon Meacham's -- that's the soul of America. 08:12.833 --> 08:17.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% And we went to that detention center because we want America to find its soul again. 08:17.533 --> 08:22.533 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Bishop Michael Curry, writing about love and relating it to so many larger 08:24.500 --> 08:28.766 align:left position:10%,start line:77% size:80% questions our country is dealing with right now, "The Power of Love: Sermons, Reflections, 08:30.900 --> 08:34.666 align:left position:20%,start line:71% size:70% and Wisdom to Uplift and Inspire," right now and this holiday season and throughout -- throughout 08:36.033 --> 08:37.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% the year. 08:37.033 --> 08:38.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Thank you very much. 08:38.033 --> 08:39.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% MOST REV. 08:39.033 --> 08:40.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% MICHAEL CURRY: Thank you. 08:40.033 --> 08:40.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% God bless you.