WEBVTT 00:01.400 --> 00:03.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: The National Book Award-winning author James 00:03.100 --> 00:07.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% McBride has a new novel out today, "The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store." 00:07.533 --> 00:12.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Like much of McBride's work, it's rooted in race, religion and personal history. 00:12.333 --> 00:16.966 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Jeffrey Brown turns the page for our arts and culture series, Canvas. 00:16.966 --> 00:21.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Rehearsal for a musical called "Bobos." 00:24.700 --> 00:27.766 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Make that a would-be musical. 00:27.766 --> 00:32.566 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Novelist and musician James McBride actually wrote it 35 years ago, 00:32.566 --> 00:37.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and it's since done nothing, no productions, zero success. But McBride is unfazed. 00:40.233 --> 00:41.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JAMES MCBRIDE, Author, "The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store": 00:41.700 --> 00:44.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I just can't let it go, in part because I think it's good. 00:44.233 --> 00:49.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, also, I don't mind failing. Writers, most of what we do fails. And that's the lesson 00:51.433 --> 00:56.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that writing teaches you. I tell young writing students all the time, fail, and fail better. 00:56.366 --> 01:01.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: By that and pretty much any standard, the 65-year-old McBride, 01:03.200 --> 01:05.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who lives in Lambertville, New Jersey, has been failing quite well. 01:05.633 --> 01:07.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He's author of five novels, 01:07.966 --> 01:12.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% including "Miracle at St. Anna," made into a film by Spike Lee, and "The Good Lord Bird." 01:15.366 --> 01:18.966 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ETHAN HAWKE, Actor: My name is Captain John Brown. And I'm here in the name of the great redeemer. 01:23.233 --> 01:26.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: The irreverent Take on the abolitionist John Brown that 01:26.800 --> 01:31.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% won the 2013 National Book Award and was later made into a Showtime series. 01:34.166 --> 01:38.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% He's also written a biography of singer James Brown and the bestselling 1996 memoir "The Color 01:40.966 --> 01:45.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of Water: A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother," the story of his white Jewish mother, 01:47.633 --> 01:51.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Ruth. Ostracized by her family for marrying a Black man, she converted to Christianity 01:53.333 --> 01:57.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and raised her 12 Black children in New York, much of the time on her own. 01:58.933 --> 02:02.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% McBride's new novel, "The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store," began with the story of 02:05.100 --> 02:07.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% another family member, but one he never knew, and only learned about later in life, his grandmother. 02:09.633 --> 02:11.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JAMES MCBRIDE: My grandmother was Jewish. And my mother was Jewish, 02:11.933 --> 02:15.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of course, but my grandmother, I never met. She died in 1942. 02:15.833 --> 02:20.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But I wanted -- and she died. And she was an immigrant from Poland. And she had a very unhappy 02:23.400 --> 02:26.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% marriage. And I wanted my grandmother to be -- to have a wonderful life. I wanted her to be loved. 02:27.966 --> 02:32.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So I wrote a book in which she was loved, and I made her loved. 02:32.366 --> 02:35.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: So this became a kind of alternate life of a 02:35.800 --> 02:37.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% grandmother that -- who you didn't really know? 02:37.833 --> 02:39.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JAMES MCBRIDE: That I never knew, yes. 02:39.166 --> 02:41.400 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Through fiction. 02:41.400 --> 02:43.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JAMES MCBRIDE: Through fiction, yes, yes. 02:43.066 --> 02:46.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Fiction is magical that way. Fiction allows your dreams to come true. 02:46.333 --> 02:50.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Like his own grandmother, McBride's main character runs a grocery 02:50.733 --> 02:55.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% store in a predominantly Black neighborhood. He's grounded his fiction in a real place and time, 02:57.433 --> 03:01.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Pottstown, Pennsylvania in the 1930s and '40s. 03:01.033 --> 03:04.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JAMES MCBRIDE: This is the notebook that I -- that I keep notes in, 03:04.600 --> 03:09.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that I have all kinds of Jewish faith, Friday night, can't touch money. 03:09.266 --> 03:13.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Combing through archives and local histories, he took notes about 03:13.366 --> 03:18.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the largely Black community of Chicken Hill, with a mix of Jews and other immigrant groups, 03:20.233 --> 03:23.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all facing levels of discrimination and antipathy by the surrounding white majority. 03:25.633 --> 03:27.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JAMES MCBRIDE: Everyone was just kind of trying to stay in their own lane, 03:27.400 --> 03:30.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but it was impossible because of outside influences. 03:30.700 --> 03:35.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so, in that regard, Pottstown is a represent -- it's my Mayberry. Mayberry 03:37.733 --> 03:40.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was where Andy Griffith was, and everyone was happy, and all the folks were white, 03:40.800 --> 03:45.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and everything was good old America, which is just fiction. 03:47.033 --> 03:50.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Pottstown, my Pottstown, my Mayberry, which is Pottstown, is real. It's much more real. 03:52.566 --> 03:56.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It's much more, in my opinion, accurate in terms of its depiction of American life. 03:58.466 --> 04:01.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JEFFREY BROWN: McBride has always grounded his life in music, often tying it to his writing, 04:03.600 --> 04:07.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as when he toured the country with his Good Lord Bird Band, when that book came out. 04:17.133 --> 04:20.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's also taught music to children at New Brown Memorial, 04:20.700 --> 04:24.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Brooklyn church his parents founded in 1954. 04:24.700 --> 04:29.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% His art, he says, explores big themes in American life, including race, but always through 04:32.133 --> 04:37.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% characters he creates who live and survive on the margins, like the people he's known and loved. 04:39.033 --> 04:41.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JAMES MCBRIDE: If you're a writer and you're writing about race, the best thing you can 04:41.633 --> 04:45.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% do is forget about it and deal with the humanity of characters. You know what the boundaries are. 04:45.833 --> 04:50.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Now you have to see which characters can kick up against those boundaries or illuminate those 04:50.733 --> 04:55.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% boundaries, so -- to make your story go. So I look at it from that point of view 04:57.766 --> 05:00.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% and also from the point of view that cynicism is like -- cynicism in a story is toxic. You 05:04.800 --> 05:09.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have to really have a desire to see the good in people, to them push past their boundaries. 05:12.100 --> 05:14.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: An openness to who they are. 05:14.300 --> 05:16.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JAMES MCBRIDE: An openness to who they are, because they will 05:16.433 --> 05:19.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% lead you into a story that shows you good stuff. 05:21.866 --> 05:25.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And so I'm trying to get these characters to move to show readers, in a way that's not boring, 05:27.400 --> 05:32.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that this history is important. Someone came here before you. And, believe me, 05:33.766 --> 05:35.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's going to be OK. Watch what he or she did. 05:35.800 --> 05:40.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: That sense of hope amid adversity clearly comes from his mother, 05:40.000 --> 05:45.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who died in 2010. And the story McBride told in his memoir has remained a touchstone for many, 05:46.533 --> 05:49.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as mixed-race families have become more common. 05:49.333 --> 05:52.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% JAMES MCBRIDE: When my mother was - - married my father and had us, 05:52.533 --> 05:55.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and we'd go on the subway and so forth, people would call her names. 05:55.433 --> 05:59.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Like, I remember, one time in the subway, and somebody went at her calling her N-lover 05:59.400 --> 06:03.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and all this crap. And we got off the train. And, later on I said -- I said: 06:03.300 --> 06:07.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% "Ma, why do you -- why do you -- you can't let people talk to you like that." 06:07.533 --> 06:10.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% She said: "Their names can't hurt me. 06:11.966 --> 06:14.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm happy. I just -- what -- did you do your homework? Where is your homework?" 06:14.800 --> 06:19.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% She didn't care. She already -- her world was good. Self-definition is the first step 06:21.433 --> 06:26.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% towards self-control and peace. Now, that journey is difficult, I agree. 06:28.300 --> 06:30.700 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I have been through it. But, ultimately, 06:30.700 --> 06:35.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the best way to be happy in that regard is to just appreciate everyone for who they are. 06:37.666 --> 06:41.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFFREY BROWN: Read in that light, "The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store," weaving 06:43.133 --> 06:47.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% together characters from different backgrounds, is James McBride's latest 06:47.100 --> 06:52.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% appreciation of the lives lived just below the surface of American history. 06:54.033 --> 06:57.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Jeffrey Brown in Lambertville, New Jersey. 06:57.400 --> 07:02.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMNA NAWAZ: That's a great line. Fiction allows your dreams to come true. 07:04.600 --> 07:05.500 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thanks to Jeff Brown.