WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:05.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: The press, politicians and the public are struggling to untangle a 00:07.000 --> 00:10.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% knot of questions, new and old, following the unprecedented FBI search of a former president 00:12.133 --> 00:16.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% home earlier this week, which leads us to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. 00:18.100 --> 00:20.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, 00:20.533 --> 00:22.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% associate editor for The Washington Post. 00:22.933 --> 00:27.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Hello to both of you. It's Friday night. Good to have you with us again. 00:27.266 --> 00:29.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there's one story that's dominating the news today. 00:29.900 --> 00:32.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Jonathan, I'm going to start with you. 00:34.166 --> 00:38.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I hardly know where to begin. But what do you make of this? I mean, the FBI carted off 00:38.033 --> 00:43.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 11 boxes, we're learning, of various degrees of confidential material this week. 00:44.200 --> 00:46.466 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: My head is still spinning. 00:48.500 --> 00:52.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And not just any material. Some of the material, we now know from the released warrant, have 00:55.066 --> 00:59.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to -- have either classified markings, top-secret markings, or sensitive, compartmented information, 01:02.000 --> 01:07.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% which is probably the highest level of security intelligence documents there are. You can only 01:09.500 --> 01:13.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% read those in secure locations, and they're not meant to be taken out of those secured locations. 01:15.266 --> 01:16.633 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Judy I'm trying to look at this, 01:18.666 --> 01:22.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% not from a partisan lens, not from my particular perspective, as someone center and left, but 01:24.700 --> 01:29.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as just an American, taking out the name of the person involved. 01:30.900 --> 01:33.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We have just seen a former president of the United States 01:35.266 --> 01:39.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% be subpoenaed in June for documents, ignored the subpoena. 01:42.233 --> 01:46.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% The FBI gets a search warrant based on three aspects of the Espionage Act. They wait three days 01:49.300 --> 01:54.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to execute it. They execute that search warrant against a former president of the United States. 01:55.866 --> 02:00.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And now we're learning that some of the most 02:02.266 --> 02:06.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% sensitive information a government official can have access to, 02:06.233 --> 02:11.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% he had with him more than a year after being out of office at his private residence. 02:12.366 --> 02:13.633 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: What should we make of this? 02:13.633 --> 02:15.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Under normal circumstances... 02:15.133 --> 02:16.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were stopping. 02:16.300 --> 02:18.266 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Go ahead, Jonathan. 02:18.266 --> 02:19.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: No, I was just going to say, under normal circumstances, 02:21.700 --> 02:24.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% everything's should be on fire, because we should not be in the situation. No 02:24.800 --> 02:29.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% president has done this. No president should do this. But Donald Trump did it. 02:29.366 --> 02:33.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, when I first heard about it, I have to confess my stomach sank. 02:33.666 --> 02:37.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And my reaction was, does the FBI understand the political firestorm they're about to set off? 02:39.000 --> 02:42.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As the days have gone by, the gravity of what 02:42.066 --> 02:46.066 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the FBI did and the justification for what they did have grown. 02:48.166 --> 02:50.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so, first, we learned this was not a rash thing, that it has been months in the making. 02:50.766 --> 02:55.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% They did issue a subpoena. They walked through this step by step. And then, even in the last few 02:57.533 --> 03:00.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% hours, we have learned that, as Jonathan said, if these documents are top-secret documents, 03:00.633 --> 03:05.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the people who know more about this than I, they say that's a really big deal. 03:07.800 --> 03:11.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And the -- one of the acts the president is being investigated for is the Espionage Act. This is a 03:13.700 --> 03:17.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% serious act, which could be a decade in prison for a normal human being. And there are other acts, 03:19.300 --> 03:22.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the potential falsification and mutilation of documents. That's also years in prison. 03:23.600 --> 03:27.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And so these are -- these are not small crimes. These are major, 03:27.600 --> 03:32.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% major criminal, if they get to it, accusations. And if you have that kind 03:32.233 --> 03:36.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of crime, and you're a law enforcement officer, you have got to do something. 03:36.466 --> 03:39.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Jonathan, how much of this depends on what 03:39.900 --> 03:44.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% actually was in those documents, how secret, how confidential, how explosive that material was? 03:47.600 --> 03:49.100 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, I think 03:51.033 --> 03:55.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that sort of gradation depends on what potential charges could come down the road. 03:57.066 --> 04:01.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But we're still talking about documents that should never have left the White House, 04:02.666 --> 04:05.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% should be in the possession of the National Archives, 04:05.033 --> 04:08.800 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% because they are the official custodian of presidential records. 04:08.800 --> 04:13.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% There are laws to ensure that those records go to the National Archives. 04:14.866 --> 04:18.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% No president, no former president, should have the documents that Donald Trump had 04:20.400 --> 04:25.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% before the FBI took them out, so -- out of Mar-a-Lago. So that's what we 04:27.433 --> 04:32.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% should be focused on, that, to my mind, yes, it matters what's in the documents. 04:34.333 --> 04:38.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What's even more important is that he took them, against the -- against statutes, 04:41.100 --> 04:44.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% once he left the White House. I cannot express 04:44.066 --> 04:48.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% how serious the situation is that the country finds itself in right now. 04:48.800 --> 04:51.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: David, you started a minute ago by saying, initially, you had the sinking 04:51.900 --> 04:56.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% feeling that this could lead to sympathy, greater support for former President Trump. 04:58.266 --> 05:01.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% How much is that still something that's a concern? 05:01.266 --> 05:03.833 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Yes. 05:03.833 --> 05:06.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% No, I do think this is -- both things are true. The FBI was probably right to do what they did. 05:08.600 --> 05:11.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This will help Donald Trump. And it helps Donald Trump in a number of ways. 05:11.266 --> 05:16.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% First, as a number of his potential primary opponents' consultants have been saying off 05:16.066 --> 05:21.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the record on -- in the media, their campaigns are now -- have the air taken 05:23.066 --> 05:25.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% out this -- out of their sails. A couple - - a month ago, a couple of months ago, 05:25.500 --> 05:27.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% half of all Republicans were saying they want to move on. 05:29.700 --> 05:31.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, in the last week, at least, and maybe short term, in the last week, 05:31.733 --> 05:35.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the whole party is rallying around Donald Trump; 80 percent of Republicans say 05:35.500 --> 05:38.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they're more motivated to vote in 2022 because of what they call this raid. 05:40.466 --> 05:44.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% The vast majority are saying this is not an impartial investigation, 05:46.366 --> 05:50.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% s is a political hack job, something like 75 percent. Half of all Americans believe that. 05:52.566 --> 05:55.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And so you get this situation where Trump -- people are rallying around Trump. His opponents 05:55.433 --> 05:59.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% now have a little to run on, because everyone's defending the guy who has been attacked. 05:59.333 --> 06:03.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And then here's where I get to the nightmare scenario. What happens 06:03.266 --> 06:08.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% if, in a couple of years, a year or two from now, Donald Trump is cruising to the Republican 06:10.233 --> 06:12.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% nomination because he's winning primary after primary, and he gets convicted of something? 06:13.800 --> 06:15.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What happens if, a year-and-a-half from now, 06:15.433 --> 06:19.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the American public decides he's going to be elected president... 06:19.833 --> 06:21.900 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Yes. 06:21.900 --> 06:23.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: ... and the American legal system decides, oh, no, he's going to prison? 06:24.366 --> 06:26.066 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What happens then to our country? 06:26.066 --> 06:29.033 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Because I assume he has to be arrested. And I assume half the country 06:29.033 --> 06:33.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% is just going to erupt in rage and, frankly, political violence. 06:33.266 --> 06:36.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So this -- the presupposition for all this, we live in a society 06:36.633 --> 06:39.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% where there's incredibly low social trust. So people don't trust the institutions. 06:41.700 --> 06:45.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, B, in a normal party, your candidacy is hurt if you're investigated by the FBI. 06:47.166 --> 06:50.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% That is not the current Republican Party right now, at least right now. 06:50.133 --> 06:54.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so the -- this is -- you can see down the road to a potential where our 06:54.400 --> 06:59.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% legal system and our political system crash, and society is really disrupted. 07:01.733 --> 07:04.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jonathan, it's not even having a charge leveled against the former president. 07:06.500 --> 07:10.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, just this week, this man went after the FBI in Cincinnati. He was 07:13.233 --> 07:15.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% later killed. He was somebody involved in January 6. He's a very, very strong Trump believer. 07:19.500 --> 07:24.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I mean, so, how much do you think the former president is helped by this politically, 07:26.466 --> 07:28.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as David is saying, and how worried are you about it leading to something else? 07:28.533 --> 07:33.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Oh, Donald Trump is absolutely helped by this. The people who believe in 07:35.800 --> 07:39.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Donald Trump and love Donald Trump will believe everything that he says and believe that anything 07:41.866 --> 07:44.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% that is done -- quote, unquote -- "against him" is persecuting him and therefore persecuting them. 07:46.700 --> 07:51.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I do not think that fear of potential violence or fear of whatever political 07:55.333 --> 08:00.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% benefit could come to Donald Trump should factor into the wheels of justice turning. 08:01.733 --> 08:06.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He cannot be allowed to be above the law. 08:08.633 --> 08:11.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And if the Justice Department or the wheels of justice were to cower in the face of the potential 08:14.633 --> 08:19.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of benefiting him, then our democracy is lost. He must be held accountable, just like anyone else 08:23.266 --> 08:25.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% potentially accused or investigated, 08:27.833 --> 08:31.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% tried for or found guilty of the things that we're talking about right now. 08:33.866 --> 08:36.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Just because he was a sitting president, a former president of the United States does 08:36.066 --> 08:40.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% not mean he's above the law. And if -- let's say that crash happens that David is talking about, 08:43.900 --> 08:47.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and he's elected, but he's convicted. 08:47.200 --> 08:52.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Well, he won't be president of the United States. I just -- Judy, David, 08:54.700 --> 08:59.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I am so -- I am so concerned about where we are right now, because we are in uncharted territory. 09:01.733 --> 09:06.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We don't know what the charges are going to be, what the real impact is going to be. 09:07.700 --> 09:11.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I do agree with David, however, that anything that happens negative, 09:13.300 --> 09:17.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% from Trump and Trump supporters' perspective, is going to lead to things that I don't think 09:19.033 --> 09:23.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we're prepared for. But we must get prepared for it, because our democracy is on the line. 09:23.833 --> 09:28.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: David, should any of this worry about what this could lead to affect 09:29.700 --> 09:31.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the judicial process in any way? 09:31.200 --> 09:33.266 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I absolutely think it should. 09:33.266 --> 09:37.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We're all responsible for the consequences of our actions. And prosecutors and investigators 09:37.666 --> 09:42.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% use discretion every single day. And so they -- if they're indicting a candidate for a major party, 09:45.100 --> 09:50.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% A, my own personal opinion is the bar should be pretty high, that they really -- A, 09:52.633 --> 09:55.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% it's a very serious crime, and, B, it's a very crystal clear case that the whole country can see. 09:57.733 --> 10:01.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That doesn't mean you don't -- as the experts of even the last few hours have talked about what 10:01.900 --> 10:05.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Donald Trump may have done with these documents probably clears the bar. 10:06.733 --> 10:09.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% January 6, I became more to think it clears the bar. 10:09.733 --> 10:14.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But you just can't ignore the society around you. You can't ignore a society 10:14.633 --> 10:19.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that is in perilously close danger of rupturing. And does that determine what 10:21.500 --> 10:22.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you do? Do you let somebody get away with a major crime? Obviously not. 10:24.566 --> 10:28.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But you can -- and none of us can be blind to the consequences of our actions. And I 10:28.300 --> 10:30.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% think prosecutors are comfortable with that. 10:30.300 --> 10:32.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: What about that, Jonathan? 10:32.300 --> 10:34.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, I don't disagree. I don't disagree with David. 10:34.966 --> 10:39.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I do think that the facts as we know them now, in terms of that FBI surge, 10:39.766 --> 10:44.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that that high bar was there, and that the Justice Department cleared those bars, 10:46.833 --> 10:51.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and then some, because they understand the consequences of what they're going to do 10:53.966 --> 10:58.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and the public, the public reaction, knowing that the subpoena was issued in June and ignored, 11:00.533 --> 11:04.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that they got the search warrant three days before it was -- it was executed. 11:05.566 --> 11:07.666 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Right. 11:07.666 --> 11:09.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: That, to me, says that the Justice Department and those people 11:10.166 --> 11:14.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% are exercising extreme caution and care. 11:14.300 --> 11:16.533 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Just a little bit of time left, 11:16.533 --> 11:19.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% but I do want to ask you both about more election results this week. 11:19.600 --> 11:24.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% David, it's the election deniers who are doing well in so many of these primary contests. And, 11:26.533 --> 11:30.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in race after race, they seem to be the folks Donald Trump has endorsed. 11:30.533 --> 11:32.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I'd say, in some weeks, 11:32.300 --> 11:35.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we have had a mixed bag, that some non-Trump people did well. 11:35.433 --> 11:38.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But pretty much, in the recent ones, Arizona, Wisconsin, elsewhere, 11:40.400 --> 11:42.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Trump people more or less swept the field. The election, I can't remember if it was 11:42.733 --> 11:45.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the day before or after the house raid. I can't remember if it was affected by it. 11:45.766 --> 11:50.233 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But they had a very good -- and then progressives did pretty well. 11:52.233 --> 11:55.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so I'd say the overall story from all these primaries so far is increased polarization. 11:56.966 --> 11:58.266 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JUDY WOODRUFF: Jonathan, less than a minute. 11:58.266 --> 12:00.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% What does this set up November to look like? 12:01.833 --> 12:03.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% JONATHAN CAPEHART: A wild November, Judy. 12:03.900 --> 12:08.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But the thing that I'm looking at is, we now have five Republican gubernatorial candidates 12:10.466 --> 12:12.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% across the country who are election deniers, Arizona, Wisconsin, 12:12.933 --> 12:17.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Michigan, Illinois, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. Any one of them, if they actually become 12:20.000 --> 12:23.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% governor of their particular state, the 2024 presidential election is in deep trouble. 12:26.000 --> 12:30.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, on this light note that we're ending on, on this Friday night... 12:31.766 --> 12:33.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Another sober week in politics. 12:33.033 --> 12:34.966 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 12:34.966 --> 12:38.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JUDY WOODRUFF: Another -- Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, thank you. Thank you both. 12:39.300 --> 12:40.233 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% DAVID BROOKS: Thank you. 12:40.233 --> 12:41.433 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Judy.