WEBVTT 00:02.366 --> 00:04.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This election in Georgia has also revealed a high-profile disagreement between 00:04.933 --> 00:09.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Donald Trump, who we saw endorsing David Perdue for governor, and his former vice president, 00:09.666 --> 00:14.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Mike Pence, who is backing current Governor Brian Kemp, and is holding a rally for him tonight. 00:17.166 --> 00:19.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So let's dive into what's at stake in Georgia with our Politics Monday team. That's Amy Walter 00:19.900 --> 00:24.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of The Cook Political Report With Amy Walter and Tamara Keith of National Public Radio. 00:24.866 --> 00:26.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Great to see you both. Great to be here. 00:29.433 --> 00:33.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Amy, help me understand this. Pence is now making his most unambiguous break with President Trump, 00:35.866 --> 00:40.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% stumping for the governor that irritates Donald Trump more than any governor in America. But 00:42.966 --> 00:46.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in the midst of this ongoing identity crisis for the GOP, does Pence move the needle in any way? 00:46.433 --> 00:50.166 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMY WALTER, The Cook Political Report: So, I think Mike Pence looks at what's 00:50.166 --> 00:54.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% happening in Georgia right now and thinks, oh, well, maybe that's the path for me too. 00:56.333 --> 00:59.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% A governor, Brian Kemp, who stood up to claims by the president that the election was rigged, 01:02.000 --> 01:04.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that he could just simply overturn it, says, no, I'm not doing it. The president 01:04.233 --> 01:08.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% threatens him. And, right now, it looks like Kemp's going to run away with this primary. 01:10.166 --> 01:13.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Mike Pence says, gosh, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? He's told me I could do all these 01:13.333 --> 01:18.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% things, overturn the election. Obviously, couldn't do those things. I'm going to present myself much 01:18.000 --> 01:23.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% like Brian Kemp did, which is, I'm a conservative candidate with a conservative record without 01:25.066 --> 01:29.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the baggage that Donald Trump brings. I'm not going to talk about 2020. I'm going to talk 01:29.033 --> 01:33.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% about the future. We're not going to litigate the past. That's not where voters want us to go. 01:33.733 --> 01:37.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, it's much more complicated when you get into a presidential contest 01:37.500 --> 01:42.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% with Donald Trump vs. an incumbent governor that Donald Trump's trying to unseat. 01:42.500 --> 01:47.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But it's clear that that's the pathway that he would like to make for himself. 01:49.466 --> 01:51.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, that's Pence's strategy, Amy -- but -- Tamara, 01:51.533 --> 01:56.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but the -- we always get a bit of grief for talking about the former president a lot. 01:56.033 --> 02:00.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But he does exert a serious gravitational pull in the GOP. And that's why 02:00.633 --> 02:02.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he still has to be factored in all of these races. 02:02.866 --> 02:04.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% TAMARA KEITH, National Public Radio: Certainly. 02:04.933 --> 02:09.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And even the candidates who are not openly saying that that they have the support 02:11.833 --> 02:15.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of Donald Trump and that they should over -- that the election results should be overturned 02:15.200 --> 02:19.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% say, well, there are questions, that there are doubts about the election. 02:19.333 --> 02:24.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% So, even the sort of mainstream conservative Republican candidates are saying just enough, 02:26.333 --> 02:31.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% playing just enough footsie with the big lie to not turn off Trump voters in a primary. 02:34.933 --> 02:39.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, his presence is very real. And you have to look beyond just this one race. 02:41.366 --> 02:43.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He's endorsed something like a dozen candidates in 02:45.066 --> 02:47.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Georgia primaries. Now, many of them are completely unopposed, and he will able to... 02:47.133 --> 02:49.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All the way down to the insurance commissioner, he's even endorsed. 02:49.066 --> 02:51.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (LAUGHTER) 02:51.100 --> 02:53.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% TAMARA KEITH: Yes. And he will be able to declare that his candidates, 02:53.666 --> 02:55.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% he pulled them across the finish line, even though they were unopposed in some of these cases. 02:58.100 --> 03:01.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But he also has Herschel Walker, who is his chosen person for the Senate race, and there was really 03:07.666 --> 03:12.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% no ability of Republicans -- other than Trump Republicans, there was no ability to pull anyone 03:14.633 --> 03:19.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% up with him. He is going to be the Republican nominee quite easily, even though there are a 03:21.900 --> 03:24.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% lot of Republicans in Georgia and elsewhere who have a lot of concerns about him as their nominee. 03:24.933 --> 03:29.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amy, let's just say that, once the midterms come, and a certain number of these 03:32.500 --> 03:37.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Republican candidates who support this -- the idea of the big lie, let's say those candidates lose. 03:38.400 --> 03:41.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Does that help break this fever within the GOP? 03:41.333 --> 03:45.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMY WALTER: Well, I think so much of it is about the leadership, right? 03:45.600 --> 03:49.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What's going to happen when there are contested elections? What are the leaders 03:49.900 --> 03:52.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in those elections going to do, the candidates in those cases? 03:52.933 --> 03:57.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Are they going to react the way Donald Trump did, say, well, that's the path for us? 03:57.533 --> 04:02.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think we have a couple of examples showing that, really, for the most part, 04:02.000 --> 04:07.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% we're not seeing that as becoming sort of part of the DNA or something that candidates are going to 04:10.466 --> 04:15.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% do after every election. There was talk after the California recall election that the Republican 04:17.433 --> 04:21.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% candidate there wasn't going to concede. He would -- he ended up conceding pretty quickly. 04:23.100 --> 04:26.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% More recently, in Pennsylvania, there's a there there's a Senate primary that has 04:26.700 --> 04:30.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% still not been called. There are about 1,000 votes separating two candidates. 04:32.000 --> 04:35.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It is going down into legal process. We're talking about absentee ballots. We're 04:35.266 --> 04:39.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% talking about signatures, all the things we heard about during the 2020 election. 04:39.333 --> 04:43.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Both the Republican candidates, though, are sticking with the process. 04:43.100 --> 04:44.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Let the process unfold. 04:44.333 --> 04:46.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% AMY WALTER: Let the process work. 04:46.966 --> 04:50.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Nobody's saying, this has been legitimate, and I'm just going to call myself the winner -- or, no, 04:50.300 --> 04:53.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% this has been illegitimate. I'm calling myself the winner. 04:53.433 --> 04:58.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Now, this is early times. But I think those are two pretty good examples to 04:58.133 --> 05:03.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% suggest that Donald Trump's way of doing things isn't going to necessarily be the way 05:04.300 --> 05:05.833 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that candidates decide they're going to follow. 05:05.833 --> 05:07.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Tam, what do you think? Does it 05:07.366 --> 05:09.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% break the fever if a bunch of these candidates lose? 05:09.833 --> 05:13.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% TAMARA KEITH: But there are a bunch of other candidates who are going to win. 05:13.100 --> 05:17.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You have someone like Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania, who 05:17.600 --> 05:20.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is -- part of his stock and trade and what made him 05:22.866 --> 05:26.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a promising candidate for the Republicans is - -and what got him Trump's endorsement is his 05:28.400 --> 05:32.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% really strong commitment to the big lie, the fact that he went on January 6 to Washington, 05:32.066 --> 05:36.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% D.C., and marched toward the Capitol, though he says he didn't go in or he didn't break the law. 05:39.066 --> 05:42.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So you have candidates who are going to make it past the primary, who are going to be the party's 05:44.500 --> 05:48.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% nominee who may or may not have Trump's backing, but absolutely support the idea of only taking 05:50.066 --> 05:54.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the votes that you want or of only accepting the result that is the result that you like. 05:57.200 --> 06:00.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So, it is -- I think that it's not settled yet whether -- whether there will be some candidates 06:04.300 --> 06:09.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% who simply say, I'm not accepting the result. There certainly are millions of Americans, 06:11.200 --> 06:14.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Americans who went and saw that "2000 Mules" movie in movie theaters, because it is in 06:14.633 --> 06:19.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% theaters. It isn't just in the corners of the Internet. They got it into theaters. 06:20.666 --> 06:23.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There are Americans who wholly believe that 2020 was stolen. 06:23.833 --> 06:28.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And if you look at the ads that are running in states all over the country in these primaries, 06:30.800 --> 06:33.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they are talking about how the election was stolen, how things were rigged. And it is 06:33.333 --> 06:38.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% just feeding upon itself, so that millions of Americans believe that 2020 was rigged. 06:38.133 --> 06:43.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And if somebody tells them in 2022 or 2024 that it was, they're primed to believe it. 06:43.033 --> 06:46.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yes, I talked a lot of Georgia voters coming out of that film, 06:46.633 --> 06:48.766 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they were convinced that this was 06:48.766 --> 06:52.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% prima facie evidence of fraud. And it's like we're living in two different ecosystems here. 06:53.666 --> 06:57.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% This whole argument about the big lie is what yielded January 6, 06:57.600 --> 07:01.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to a large degree. We know Congress is going to be holding hearings about this. 07:01.666 --> 07:05.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Some Democrats have promised on that committee that they have 07:05.100 --> 07:10.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% blockbuster testimony that they will reveal to the public. We don't know what that is. 07:12.133 --> 07:15.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But let's just say that that does come to pass. Do you think that that searing day, 07:17.533 --> 07:22.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% albeit presented by a congressional hearing, similarly moves people? Is there anything 07:24.266 --> 07:26.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% at this point that people could see about January 6 that will change their opinion? 07:28.600 --> 07:32.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AMY WALTER: I do doubt that to be the case. I just think we have now -- the 07:32.000 --> 07:36.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% political lines are pretty well set, and they're pretty deep right now. 07:38.466 --> 07:41.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% To Tam's point, if you have already gone and seen a movie, and you're convinced 07:41.733 --> 07:45.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that that movie is right, there's nothing that is going to be shown in a hearing, 07:45.900 --> 07:50.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% which Republicans are going to say was completely political and completely biased to work. 07:50.400 --> 07:55.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The one thing I will say, though, as a tactic, right for being a strong candidate 07:57.300 --> 08:00.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in this election, if you're a Republican, the issue is inflation. The issue is economy. 08:00.933 --> 08:04.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That's what voters across the board are saying is the most important thing to them. 08:04.933 --> 08:09.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% If they decide, instead, these candidates, I'm going to focus on the 2020 election being rigged, 08:09.733 --> 08:13.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm going to focus on Donald Trump and showing my loyalty to Donald Trump, 08:14.533 --> 08:17.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% polling shows that that is a terrible decision, 08:17.200 --> 08:22.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% because independent voters overwhelmingly -- just 24 percent of them say, yes, we want a candidate 08:24.200 --> 08:27.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for -- a Republican candidate for Congress who's going to focus on the 2020 election. 08:27.600 --> 08:32.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% That's not what they're looking for. Republicans may be, but independent voters are not. 08:32.000 --> 08:36.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Tomorrow will certainly be a big test of how these races all unfolded. 08:36.866 --> 08:38.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% AMY WALTER: That's right. 08:38.966 --> 08:39.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amy and Tam, so good to see you. Thank you both very much. 08:39.900 --> 08:40.700 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% AMY WALTER: You're welcome. 08:40.700 --> 08:44.333 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% TAMARA KEITH: Thank you.