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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This 
election in Georgia has 
also revealed a high-profile 
disagreement between

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Donald Trump, who we saw 
endorsing David Perdue 
for governor, and his 
former vice president,

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Mike Pence, who is backing 
current Governor Brian 
Kemp, and is holding a 
rally for him tonight.

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So let's dive into what's 
at stake in Georgia 
with our Politics Monday 
team. That's Amy Walter

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of The Cook Political Report 
With Amy Walter and Tamara 
Keith of National Public Radio.

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Great to see you both. 
Great to be here.

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Amy, help me understand 
this. Pence is now making 
his most unambiguous break 
with President Trump,

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stumping for the governor that 
irritates Donald Trump more than 
any governor in America. But

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in the midst of this 
ongoing identity crisis 
for the GOP, does Pence 
move the needle in any way?

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AMY WALTER, The Cook 
Political Report: So, I think 
Mike Pence looks at what's

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happening in Georgia right now 
and thinks, oh, well, maybe 
that's the path for me too.

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A governor, Brian Kemp, 
who stood up to claims 
by the president that 
the election was rigged,

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that he could just simply 
overturn it, says, no, I'm 
not doing it. The president

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threatens him. And, right now, 
it looks like Kemp's going to 
run away with this primary.

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Mike Pence says, gosh, 
that sounds familiar, 
doesn't it? He's told 
me I could do all these

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things, overturn the election. 
Obviously, couldn't do 
those things. I'm going 
to present myself much

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like Brian Kemp did, which 
is, I'm a conservative 
candidate with a 
conservative record without

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the baggage that Donald Trump 
brings. I'm not going to talk 
about 2020. I'm going to talk

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about the future. We're 
not going to litigate the 
past. That's not where 
voters want us to go.

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Now, it's much more 
complicated when you get 
into a presidential contest

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with Donald Trump vs. an 
incumbent governor that Donald 
Trump's trying to unseat.

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But it's clear that that's 
the pathway that he would 
like to make for himself.

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I mean, 
that's Pence's strategy, 
Amy -- but -- Tamara,

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but the -- we always get a 
bit of grief for talking about 
the former president a lot.

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But he does exert a serious 
gravitational pull in 
the GOP. And that's why

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he still has to be factored 
in all of these races.

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TAMARA KEITH, National 
Public Radio: Certainly.

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And even the candidates who 
are not openly saying that 
that they have the support

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of Donald Trump and that they 
should over -- that the election 
results should be overturned

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say, well, there are 
questions, that there are 
doubts about the election.

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So, even the sort of 
mainstream conservative 
Republican candidates 
are saying just enough,

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playing just enough footsie 
with the big lie to not turn 
off Trump voters in a primary.

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So, his presence is very 
real. And you have to look 
beyond just this one race.

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He's endorsed something 
like a dozen candidates in

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Georgia primaries. Now, many of 
them are completely unopposed, 
and he will able to...

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All 
the way down to the 
insurance commissioner, 
he's even endorsed.

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(LAUGHTER)

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TAMARA KEITH: Yes. And he 
will be able to declare 
that his candidates,

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he pulled them across the 
finish line, even though 
they were unopposed in 
some of these cases.

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But he also has Herschel 
Walker, who is his chosen 
person for the Senate 
race, and there was really

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no ability of Republicans 
-- other than Trump 
Republicans, there was 
no ability to pull anyone

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up with him. He is going to be 
the Republican nominee quite 
easily, even though there are a

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lot of Republicans in 
Georgia and elsewhere who 
have a lot of concerns 
about him as their nominee.

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amy, 
let's just say that, once 
the midterms come, and a 
certain number of these

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Republican candidates who 
support this -- the idea 
of the big lie, let's say 
those candidates lose.

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Does that help break this 
fever within the GOP?

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AMY WALTER: Well, I think 
so much of it is about 
the leadership, right?

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What's going to happen 
when there are contested 
elections? What are the leaders

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in those elections going to do, 
the candidates in those cases?

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Are they going to react the 
way Donald Trump did, say, 
well, that's the path for us?

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And I think we have a couple 
of examples showing that, 
really, for the most part,

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we're not seeing that as 
becoming sort of part of 
the DNA or something that 
candidates are going to

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do after every election. 
There was talk after the 
California recall election 
that the Republican

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candidate there wasn't going to 
concede. He would -- he ended 
up conceding pretty quickly.

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More recently, in Pennsylvania, 
there's a there there's 
a Senate primary that has

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still not been called. 
There are about 1,000 votes 
separating two candidates.

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It is going down into legal 
process. We're talking about 
absentee ballots. We're

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talking about signatures, 
all the things we heard about 
during the 2020 election.

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Both the Republican 
candidates, though, are 
sticking with the process.

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Let 
the process unfold.

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AMY WALTER: Let 
the process work.

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Nobody's saying, this has 
been legitimate, and I'm 
just going to call myself 
the winner -- or, no,

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this has been illegitimate. 
I'm calling myself the winner.

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Now, this is early times. 
But I think those are two 
pretty good examples to

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suggest that Donald Trump's 
way of doing things isn't 
going to necessarily be the way

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that candidates decide 
they're going to follow.

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Tam, 
what do you think? Does it

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break the fever if a bunch 
of these candidates lose?

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TAMARA KEITH: But there are 
a bunch of other candidates 
who are going to win.

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You have someone like Doug 
Mastriano in Pennsylvania, who

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is -- part of his stock 
and trade and what made him

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a promising candidate for the 
Republicans is - -and what got 
him Trump's endorsement is his

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really strong commitment to the 
big lie, the fact that he went 
on January 6 to Washington,

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D.C., and marched toward 
the Capitol, though he 
says he didn't go in or 
he didn't break the law.

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So you have candidates 
who are going to make it 
past the primary, who are 
going to be the party's

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nominee who may or may not have 
Trump's backing, but absolutely 
support the idea of only taking

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the votes that you want or of 
only accepting the result that 
is the result that you like.

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So, it is -- I think 
that it's not settled yet 
whether -- whether there 
will be some candidates

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who simply say, I'm not 
accepting the result. 
There certainly are 
millions of Americans,

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Americans who went and saw that 
"2000 Mules" movie in movie 
theaters, because it is in

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theaters. It isn't just in 
the corners of the Internet. 
They got it into theaters.

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There are Americans who wholly 
believe that 2020 was stolen.

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And if you look at the ads that 
are running in states all over 
the country in these primaries,

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they are talking about how 
the election was stolen, how 
things were rigged. And it is

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just feeding upon itself, so 
that millions of Americans 
believe that 2020 was rigged.

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And if somebody tells them 
in 2022 or 2024 that it was, 
they're primed to believe it.

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Yes, I 
talked a lot of Georgia voters 
coming out of that film,

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and they were 
convinced that this was

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prima facie evidence of fraud. 
And it's like we're living in 
two different ecosystems here.

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This whole argument 
about the big lie is 
what yielded January 6,

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to a large degree. We know 
Congress is going to be 
holding hearings about this.

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Some Democrats have promised on 
that committee that they have

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blockbuster testimony that 
they will reveal to the public. 
We don't know what that is.

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But let's just say that that 
does come to pass. Do you 
think that that searing day,

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albeit presented by a 
congressional hearing, similarly 
moves people? Is there anything

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at this point that people 
could see about January 6 that 
will change their opinion?

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AMY WALTER: I do doubt 
that to be the case. I just 
think we have now -- the

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political lines are pretty 
well set, and they're 
pretty deep right now.

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To Tam's point, if you have 
already gone and seen a 
movie, and you're convinced

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that that movie is right, 
there's nothing that is going 
to be shown in a hearing,

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which Republicans are going to 
say was completely political 
and completely biased to work.

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The one thing I will say, 
though, as a tactic, right 
for being a strong candidate

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in this election, if you're 
a Republican, the issue is 
inflation. The issue is economy.

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That's what voters across 
the board are saying is the 
most important thing to them.

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If they decide, instead, 
these candidates, I'm 
going to focus on the 2020 
election being rigged,

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I'm going to focus on 
Donald Trump and showing 
my loyalty to Donald Trump,

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polling shows that that 
is a terrible decision,

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because independent voters 
overwhelmingly -- just 
24 percent of them say, 
yes, we want a candidate

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for -- a Republican candidate 
for Congress who's going to 
focus on the 2020 election.

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That's not what they're looking 
for. Republicans may be, but 
independent voters are not.

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Tomorrow 
will certainly be a big test of 
how these races all unfolded.

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AMY WALTER: That's right.

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WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amy and 
Tam, so good to see you. 
Thank you both very much.

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AMY WALTER: You're welcome.

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TAMARA KEITH: Thank you.