1 00:00:01,966 --> 00:00:04,900 JUDY WOODRUFF: Now the fallout from sexual harassment scandals and the calls for change. 2 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:09,900 We are continuing our own series of discussions with women across American society, and with 3 00:00:11,266 --> 00:00:13,400 differing perspectives. 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,633 Tonight, we hear from one of the most prominent women calling the shots in television filmmaking. 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,833 Sheila Nevins is the president of HBO Documentary Films, and has green-lit more than 1,000 films 6 00:00:25,666 --> 00:00:30,666 over three decades. Before that, she worked at ABC, CBS, and PBS. 7 00:00:32,666 --> 00:00:35,800 She's also the author of the new book, "You Don't Look Your Age and Other Fairy Tales." 8 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:39,600 I spoke with her earlier today. 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,500 Sheila Nevins, thank you for talking with us. 10 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:43,233 ÑMD-BOÑSHEILA NEVINS, President, HBO Documentary Films: Thank you for having me. 11 00:00:43,233 --> 00:00:45,933 JUDY WOODRUFF: Were you surprised by the Harvey Weinstein revelations? 12 00:00:45,933 --> 00:00:48,033 SHEILA NEVINS: Yes. Yes. 13 00:00:48,033 --> 00:00:51,000 JUDY WOODRUFF: You had dealt with him professionally? 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,100 SHEILA NEVINS: Yes. Yes. 15 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:57,700 I wasn't surprised in any way by temperament or anger or certain kind of language. But 16 00:01:00,433 --> 00:01:05,366 I was surprised by the physical stories, the stories of sexual, physical abuse. I really 17 00:01:05,966 --> 00:01:07,900 was surprised. 18 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:10,566 JUDY WOODRUFF: What have you known of sexual harassment in this industry? 19 00:01:10,566 --> 00:01:15,566 SHEILA NEVINS: You know, I'm old. I grew up and the rules of the game were different. 20 00:01:17,533 --> 00:01:21,166 I didn't know -- I really didn't know that I wasn't to be touched and manhandled. I finally 21 00:01:23,366 --> 00:01:25,466 understand the meaning of the word. 22 00:01:25,466 --> 00:01:29,733 I really didn't know what that was. I thought, to succeed, I had to be somewhat seductive 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,200 and complicit. So I would argue that, in the '60s, when I got out of Yale and I got out 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,200 of school and I wanted a job, I think I wasn't abused because I was active sexually and complicit. 25 00:01:46,700 --> 00:01:51,700 I now have sort of reformed all of that, because I realize what I consider to be acceptable 26 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:58,900 was really abuse, and I recovered because I wanted a job so badly. 27 00:02:00,966 --> 00:02:05,933 But now I feel everything is out of hand and that there is just -- it's enough. It's enough, 28 00:02:07,966 --> 00:02:12,400 and women have to be together. I didn't have any women to go to. I didn't have anyone to 29 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,400 cry to, but now I think when you cry together, you make a louder noise, and I feel like I'm 30 00:02:18,933 --> 00:02:21,033 happy to add my voice. 31 00:02:21,033 --> 00:02:24,566 JUDY WOODRUFF: Did you feel or did you know there were other women going through the same 32 00:02:24,566 --> 00:02:26,600 thing when you were? 33 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,066 SHEILA NEVINS: No, because when I began in this business, there were very few women in 34 00:02:29,066 --> 00:02:34,066 the business, so there was no way that I would know. It was a man's world and the only way 35 00:02:35,433 --> 00:02:38,266 - - I didn't -- no, I didn't know. I didn't know. 36 00:02:38,266 --> 00:02:43,266 I mean, I used to sit at screenings at unknown, unnamed, I should say, networks, and someone 37 00:02:45,233 --> 00:02:50,033 put their hands down my back. Or I -- I didn't know to remove them. I thought if I removed 38 00:02:52,066 --> 00:02:55,433 them, someone else would get my job. But it was the truth in the '60s. It was the truth. 39 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: Is it accurate to say that you were suffering in silence? 40 00:02:59,633 --> 00:03:04,633 SHEILA NEVINS: In retrospect, it intimidated me, but I was so ambitious, that I pushed 41 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,866 that aside. 42 00:03:10,866 --> 00:03:14,800 I mean, I hurt. It hurt. I mean, it hurt mentally in a way, but I didn't know. I didn't know. 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,466 You know, it's like getting T.B. before there's a shot for it or getting polio before there's 44 00:03:20,466 --> 00:03:22,566 Salk. I didn't know. 45 00:03:22,566 --> 00:03:26,900 How was I to know? Who was my role model? Who was I going to look to? There was no Gloria 46 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:32,466 Steinem. There was no women's movement. There was no one telling me that I was equal. I 47 00:03:33,333 --> 00:03:35,366 actually thought I wasn't equal. 48 00:03:35,366 --> 00:03:37,500 JUDY WOODRUFF: Is there any doubt in your mind that things have changed? 49 00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:40,866 SHEILA NEVINS: Yes, there's no doubt in my mind that things have changed. 50 00:03:40,866 --> 00:03:45,866 I think it has to do with the group of voices, as opposed to solos. Solo is a very lonely 51 00:03:47,766 --> 00:03:51,933 thing. I don't know how to sing, but I have to use that word. Solo, you do what you can 52 00:03:53,933 --> 00:03:57,700 do. Together, you're warriors, and I think it makes a big difference. I wasn't Wonder 53 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,266 Woman. 54 00:04:00,266 --> 00:04:02,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: How has it changed? Because there are still these stories that are coming 55 00:04:02,633 --> 00:04:04,700 out. 56 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:08,633 SHEILA NEVINS: I think that men are put on warning, you know, keep off the grass sign 57 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:11,600 now, for want of a better thing. 58 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,333 You can't. You can't anymore, and you should never have. But now you can't, because your 59 00:04:18,300 --> 00:04:20,233 job is in jeopardy, your life is in jeopardy, your career is in jeopardy. 60 00:04:20,233 --> 00:04:22,366 JUDY WOODRUFF: But some of the Harvey Weinstein allegations are pretty recent. 61 00:04:22,366 --> 00:04:25,700 SHEILA NEVINS: That's so criminal as to not even be part of the conversation. 62 00:04:25,700 --> 00:04:30,700 In other words, I always think that whatever that was, was -- it wasn't just intimidation. 63 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,300 It was brutal. It was physical. It was -- it seems criminal. I don't know. 64 00:04:38,333 --> 00:04:43,333 But I think the abuse, the sexual abuse, the harassment, it's enough. It's time. It's time 65 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,666 women get together and say, enough. If it happened to you, it happened to me, it happened 66 00:04:50,666 --> 00:04:53,200 to her. It's not going to happen to my daughter. 67 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:58,200 JUDY WOODRUFF: As head of HBO Documentaries, you made the decision, you and your colleagues, 68 00:05:00,233 --> 00:05:03,966 to cancel the series by Mark Halperin, political journalist working now for NBC, allegations 69 00:05:05,833 --> 00:05:07,300 about him. 70 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:09,400 Was there any hesitation about making that decision? 71 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,066 SHEILA NEVINS: I can't answer that, because, in fact, I'm -- that's not my area. I don't 72 00:05:13,066 --> 00:05:16,733 really know of that decision. I mean, I know of the decision, of course, but I don't know 73 00:05:16,733 --> 00:05:18,800 what led to make that decision. 74 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,700 But I think HBO has become a place of zero tolerance. There are a lot of women in power. 75 00:05:25,100 --> 00:05:28,133 And I think we would have been angry had it gone ahead. 76 00:05:28,133 --> 00:05:33,133 JUDY WOODRUFF: You said, I saw in one interview, that there weren't human resources departments. 77 00:05:35,166 --> 00:05:37,133 SHEILA NEVINS: No, there was no one to go to. There was no -- I don't know the word 78 00:05:37,133 --> 00:05:39,333 sexual harassment. I don't think I knew it until about 25 years ago. 79 00:05:39,333 --> 00:05:43,066 JUDY WOODRUFF: But there are human resources departments now, and yet women are saying 80 00:05:43,066 --> 00:05:47,200 they don't feel safe necessarily going there. They worry they are still going to have a 81 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,400 job in jeopardy if they go forward. 82 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,900 SHEILA NEVINS: They have to go forward. There have to be enough women in power that if you 83 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:58,900 go forward on behalf of what happened with a male colleague, that everyone will join 84 00:06:01,233 --> 00:06:03,266 you, and you will not lose your job. 85 00:06:03,266 --> 00:06:07,333 There may have been a time when you were afraid you would lose your job. But I don't really 86 00:06:07,333 --> 00:06:12,100 know. I don't know. It's different. The rules are different. There is a vaccine against 87 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:16,200 it now. We're not going to get that disease anymore. We're just not going to get it. 88 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,500 JUDY WOODRUFF: You really do think things have changed? 89 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:22,133 SHEILA NEVINS: I absolutely think it. I absolutely think it. 90 00:06:22,133 --> 00:06:27,133 I think that's what revolutions are about. It's been quiet for a long time. I mean, it's 91 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:33,366 very sad, really, that women have been subjected to that for so long and have had to be so 92 00:06:35,366 --> 00:06:39,633 silent about it because there was no place to go. It's hard being a woman in the workplace. 93 00:06:41,066 --> 00:06:43,066 Harassment is very deep. 94 00:06:43,066 --> 00:06:47,066 It's emotional. It doesn't only have to be sexual. It can go into other things. Not being 95 00:06:48,966 --> 00:06:53,500 heard, not being reckoned with, not being treated equally, not getting equal pay. This 96 00:06:55,466 --> 00:07:00,100 catapults sort of all those other things into the spotlight. Men will be careful. They will 97 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:04,166 be careful of us. They will respect us. They won't hurt us. 98 00:07:04,166 --> 00:07:07,833 JUDY WOODRUFF: I'm asking you about this, Sheila Nevins, because I still hear young 99 00:07:07,833 --> 00:07:12,833 women saying the workplace is still so unbalanced, with men holding by far the balance of power 100 00:07:15,033 --> 00:07:20,033 and women not, that there's not a check on so many men who feel they can... 101 00:07:22,033 --> 00:07:24,400 SHEILA NEVINS: I don't think it's going to happen again. A man would have to be pretty 102 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,500 stupid to step forward right now. 103 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:31,033 I mean, he would have to be pretty -- he really would have to be a psychopath, because he 104 00:07:31,033 --> 00:07:36,033 would have to be willing to lose everything he has, his scripts, his jobs, his wife, his 105 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,933 respectability. 106 00:07:39,933 --> 00:07:43,800 I don't think -- I don't know where they work. I know where I work, but I think that there 107 00:07:45,866 --> 00:07:47,966 is -- it's the time to fight back. 108 00:07:47,966 --> 00:07:52,966 JUDY WOODRUFF: So what is your advice today to young women who experience something and 109 00:07:54,333 --> 00:07:56,400 aren't sure they should come forward? 110 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,466 SHEILA NEVINS: They have to come forward, because there are enough women in power now 111 00:07:59,466 --> 00:08:03,833 that can hire them, that can listen to them, and there are enough people in positions of 112 00:08:03,833 --> 00:08:08,833 - - I mean, human resources sounds like a funny word, but there are enough people in the workplace 113 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,133 who will join with you and fight back. 114 00:08:12,133 --> 00:08:16,833 You're not alone. Women are not alone anymore. They're just not alone. And I think -- I wouldn't 115 00:08:18,833 --> 00:08:21,200 be talking to you if I thought that I was alone. I feel like you and I are on the same 116 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,300 page. 117 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:26,333 You know, at a certain point, you're old enough in this business that no guy's going to make 118 00:08:26,333 --> 00:08:31,333 a pass at you, OK? But that shouldn't be the reason, should it? And I think that equality 119 00:08:33,900 --> 00:08:38,466 that you get as you get older, because you're not a -- quote -- "sex object" anymore, has 120 00:08:38,466 --> 00:08:40,733 to pervade youth and young women, and it will. 121 00:08:40,733 --> 00:08:45,733 It just will. It has to. Come to us. We will help them. 122 00:08:46,333 --> 00:08:47,600 (LAUGHTER) 123 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,633 JUDY WOODRUFF: For sure, come to us. 124 00:08:50,633 --> 00:08:52,666 Sheila Nevins, thank you very much. 125 00:08:52,666 --> 00:08:55,433 SHEILA NEVINS: Thank you for asking me these questions. I really appreciate it.