WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:05.000 JUDY WOODRUFF: The push to unionize Amazon workers in Alabama is over, for now. 00:05.360 --> 00:09.120 Amazon is the second largest private employer in the U.S., 00:09.120 --> 00:14.120 with nearly 800,000 workers. But none of its facilities are unionized. 00:14.720 --> 00:18.000 Stephanie Sy reports on today's victory for the tech giant. 00:18.000 --> 00:23.000 STEPHANIE SY: Judy, more than 5,800 workers are employed at that warehouse, 00:25.280 --> 00:30.280 and it was considered a pivotal test of organized labor's efforts to unionize at big tech companies. 00:32.720 --> 00:37.120 But when the National Labor Relations Board finished counting ballots today, 00:37.120 --> 00:42.120 it was clear union organizers just did not have nearly enough votes. 00:42.400 --> 00:45.840 Margaret O'Mara is a historian who watches labor, 00:45.840 --> 00:50.320 capitalism and tech at the University of Washington. She joins me now. 00:50.320 --> 00:53.760 Professor O'Mara, thank you so much for being on the "NewsHour." 00:53.760 --> 00:58.760 This was quite a definitive vote in favor not to unionize, with 1,798 workers voting against, 01:02.240 --> 01:07.240 738 voting in favor. And just over half the workers overall cast ballots. 01:07.680 --> 01:09.600 What do you think led to that outcome? 01:09.600 --> 01:14.080 MARGARET O'MARA, University of Washington: Well, it was a pretty decisive vote, and it was a -- it 01:14.080 --> 01:19.080 was a win for Amazon, which had worked very hard to prevent this union drive from being successful. 01:22.080 --> 01:27.080 But it also was a loss for Amazon, too, in some ways, in that here we are talking about labor 01:27.280 --> 01:32.280 conditions at the Amazon fulfillment centers, same way it was a win-lose for the union. The union 01:33.760 --> 01:38.760 lost this drive, but, also, there's incredible momentum around what -- where it might go next. 01:41.200 --> 01:45.440 STEPHANIE SY: 01:45.440 --> 01:50.440 Did this, in this case, in Alabama, come down to the wages, to the money? Amazon pays somewhat 01:52.960 --> 01:57.960 - - around $15 an hour for most workers at that fulfillment center. They offer health benefits. 01:59.920 --> 02:04.640 Fifteen dollars an hour there in Alabama is more than twice the minimum wage. 02:04.640 --> 02:08.240 Is that what led the fight here, as opposed to working conditions? 02:08.240 --> 02:13.240 MARGARET O'MARA: Well, you're right. It is twice the minimum wage. 02:13.840 --> 02:18.640 And I think that working conditions were really what the -- what was the catalyst. And this is 02:18.640 --> 02:23.640 coming in the wake of our pandemic year, when - - which was a blockbuster year for Amazon, but 02:23.840 --> 02:28.840 also a year when the demands on the fulfillment centers and their workers were pretty strong. 02:29.840 --> 02:34.320 And where this starts popping out into the public eye is the 02:34.320 --> 02:39.120 conditions that -- the health conditions on the floor of the fulfillment centers 02:40.000 --> 02:45.000 that -- and Amazon then launches a sort of comprehensive campaign to assure 02:45.840 --> 02:50.080 workers and the public that they are doing all these things to protect workers during COVID. 02:50.080 --> 02:55.080 But there is a -- it's not just the money. And this is -- the pay scale, as Amazon does 02:55.920 --> 03:00.920 not hesitate to remind us, is much higher than a lot of comparable jobs in these communities. 03:02.160 --> 03:05.760 Yet there are things that come with it. It's a tough -- it's tough work, often. 03:05.760 --> 03:10.760 STEPHANIE SY: Was this going to be an uphill battle? First of all, it's 03:12.320 --> 03:17.320 Alabama. It's a right-to-work state. Tough to unionize there in general. 03:17.360 --> 03:22.360 Secondly, Amazon, as you mentioned, was a bright spot when it came to hiring. It hired hundreds of 03:23.200 --> 03:28.200 thousands of additional workers, as many companies were shedding work during this time and workers. 03:29.200 --> 03:32.320 MARGARET O'MARA: Yes, that's right. 03:33.120 --> 03:37.360 You know, Amazon's been growing, building more and more fulfillment centers. And these are 03:37.360 --> 03:41.600 centers that the state and local leaders of these communities are eager to get. 03:42.560 --> 03:47.560 This has been know -- so, I think that this -- that growth is not going to slow. 03:47.920 --> 03:52.920 I think that is -- indeed, what we saw in the vote was not all workers saw the union as the answer. 03:56.240 --> 04:01.240 And, in some ways, the characteristics of the work in these fulfillment centers that 04:01.840 --> 04:05.360 were the complaints and the reasons for the union drive in the first place, 04:05.360 --> 04:10.080 like turnover transience, the toughness of the job, the demand of the job, 04:10.640 --> 04:15.640 also worked against workers feeling like this is a job I want to invest in, and I want to 04:16.480 --> 04:21.040 stay here for a long time, so I'm willing to join a union to make those conditions better. 04:21.040 --> 04:26.040 STEPHANIE SY: Why did this fight, Professor O'Mara, become so emblematic 04:28.320 --> 04:31.040 for other labor struggles around the country? 04:31.040 --> 04:36.040 And where do things go from here? Is this the end of the line for unionization for Amazon workers, 04:37.120 --> 04:39.040 or are there other struggles in the works? 04:40.120 --> 04:45.120 MARGARET O'MARA: Well, this is significant because Amazon is the iconic company our 04:47.280 --> 04:52.280 time, in the way that U.S. Steel or Standard Oil were of an -- in an earlier era 120 years ago. 04:55.280 --> 05:00.280 It touches consumers and businesses across the country and the world. It is inescapable. 05:01.440 --> 05:05.920 It is a very important part and became an even more important part of American life during the 05:05.920 --> 05:10.920 pandemic year. So, I think, when you have this bigness, this market dominance, Amazon is now 05:12.480 --> 05:16.960 getting -- facing political headwinds that it didn't have to face only a few years ago. 05:16.960 --> 05:20.960 And the bigger questions about regulation and antitrust and competition, 05:20.960 --> 05:25.200 protecting small businesses, protecting workers, they're all connected. And I 05:25.200 --> 05:30.000 don't think that that's going to go away. We don't know how this is going to play out. 05:30.000 --> 05:32.480 Obviously, had the vote gone a different way, 05:32.480 --> 05:35.520 we'd be drawing different conclusions. So, I think we should be careful about 05:36.720 --> 05:40.000 declaratively saying this is where it's going to go next. But this is a big deal. 05:40.000 --> 05:44.880 STEPHANIE SY: And, of course, we should say that the union 05:44.880 --> 05:49.680 says it does plan to challenge the outcome of this vote tally. 05:50.240 --> 05:54.560 Margaret O'Mara with the University of Washington, a historian 05:54.560 --> 05:58.320 that looks at labor issues, thank you so much for joining us with your perspective. 05:58.320 --> 06:03.320 MARGARET O'MARA: My pleasure. Thanks.